Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Conspiracy Theory Theory [

From: Mike Lorrey <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:32:52 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> 
> > Moreso when the number of people who do have massive influence in
> the 
> > world, let alone one nation, probably number no more than a few 
> > hundred. And they all know each other.
> 
> 
> So which is preferred... a few hundred key govt persons manipulating 
> from a position of  irresponsibility or
> a few hundred persons  whose livlihood hangs on their decisions.  We 
> know who most of them are
> and as we saw with Martha Stewart they are not untouchable if they
> mess around with things.
> 
> I'd rather see Kurzweil, Gates and a a dozen others like them
> conspiring  to live longer , knowing that they
> are likely to commercialize this for others than a similar size bunch
> living in a fool's paradise wondering if
> there was a consensus that people really approve of this and deciding
> to study the subject and do nothing in the however long meantime.

To imagine that Kurzweil, Gates, and Stewart are of the few hundred
spoken of is naive. Their wealth and power pales. Perhaps only Gates
rivals the PTB.

Besides, another causal link in the chain fell into place: China's
government is exhorting its people to put their savings into gold, i.e
they are preparing for a war-time economy.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/106135.htm

The JP Morgan-run chinese banking system is encouraging use of gold
deposits and is issuing gold certificates for gold on deposit.

JP Morgan runs the US Federal Reserve Bank. It also runs the Chinese
reserve bank. Who therefore stands to profit the most from a conflict
between these two nations? It is financing the military infrastructures
and welfare systems of both nations.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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---

From: Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:52:06 +0100

>and welfare systems of both nations.
I expect any war to be triggered by the US, not China.
As for conspiracies, how about this one - that the US is preparing to 
use such a war to wipe out its debt and generally try to screw the rest 
of the world with worthless dollars. It might mean some temporary 
hyperinflation at home and a bit of martial law, but that's what wars 
are for.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

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---

From: "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:26:05 -0500

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> use such a war to wipe out its debt and generally try to screw the 
> rest of the world with worthless dollars. It might mean some temporary 
And we wonder why any AI with half a brain would deny a claim of  
parentage from humans?
I'd take my chances in a posthuman world over more of the same old 
repeats of history any day.
The definition of insanity is knowing the futility of an effort and 
still doing it over and over , expecting a different result each time.

---

From: Keith Henson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:47:58 -0400

>Dirk Bruere wrote:

snip

>>I expect any war to be triggered by the US, not China.

My thesis on this subject is that humans go into war mode when triggered by 
the same kind of things that set our remote hunter gatherer ancestors on 
the warpath.

I can see two mechanisms for going into war mode, being attacked, i.e., 
Pearl Harbor or as an effect of xenophobic memes that build up when there 
is a widespread belief in a bleak future.  The latter would tend to be set 
off by a drop in economic well being of a substantial fraction of the 
population--something which has happened in the US as the lower class has 
been cut out of the economic pie.  The two mechanisms add or perhaps multiply.

>>As for conspiracies, how about this one - that the US is preparing to use 
>>such a war to wipe out its debt and generally try to screw the rest of 
>>the world with worthless dollars. It might mean some temporary 
>>hyperinflation at home and a bit of martial law, but that's what wars are for.

Wars are also to reduce the population.  At least that was the evolved 
function of them back in the stone age.

>I'd take my chances in a posthuman world over more of the same old repeats 
>of history any day.
>The definition of insanity is knowing the futility of an effort and still 
>doing it over and over , expecting a different result each time.

I wonder how many cycles of population build up and wars that reduced 
population the world has seen?  Wild state humans probably were able to 
double their population every 25 years.  Which would mean about 4 
population reducing wars per century.  If you take the human line origin at 
rock chipping 2.5 million years ago that's 100,000 population reducing 
wars.  Or 300,000 wars if you go back to the split from the chimps.

I see your point.  That's a lot of repeats.

Keith Henson

---

From: Samantha Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 03:25:16 -0700

On Apr 25, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>>  study the subject and do nothing in the however long meantime.
>

Good for them!  About time people realized the fundamental 
worthlessness of fiat currency.  I exhort people to put a lot of their 
money into gold myself.  For a country to do so is quite prudent in 
these times .  It is not necessarily a warlike move at all.   Here is a 
great mystery.  Why is the price of gold flat with that kind of 
pressure in play?

> and welfare systems of both nations.

All of the banks are going to be hosed if they are called on more than 
a small fraction of their very highly leveraged positions.  I think you 
need better scapegoats.

-s

---

From: "Brian Lee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:40:00 -0400

Yeah, gold is a great investment. Check out these excellent returns of gold:
http://www.retirement-planning.com/returnrates.htm

You're better off investing in 3 month t-bills.

BAL

>From: Samantha Atkins <[email-masked]>
>To: ExI chat list <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Conspiracy Theory Theory [
>Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 03:25:16 -0700
>
>Good for them!  About time people realized the fundamental worthlessness of 
>fiat currency.  I exhort people to put a lot of their money into gold 
>myself.  For a country to do so is quite prudent in these times .  It is 
>not necessarily a warlike move at all.   Here is a great mystery.  Why is 
>the price of gold flat with that kind of pressure in play?
>
>>
>All of the banks are going to be hosed if they are called on more than a 
>small fraction of their very highly leveraged positions.  I think you need 
>better scapegoats.
>
>-s
>

---

From: BillK <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:05:08 +0100

> You're better off investing in 3 month t-bills.

Gold and precious metals are a reasonable investment in times of
devaluing paper currency. If the US is embarked on a policy of dollar
devaluation to help solve the deficit problem then converting paper
dollars into precious metal asserts could be a good move. Foreign
investors will get fed up with watching the value of dollar
investments collapse in value.
Internal US investors should also be thinking about investing in
tangible assets that hold their value in times of higher inflation and
stock market crashes.

BillK

---

From: "Brian Lee" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:05:35 -0400

There are better investments in times of devaluing US currency. For example, 
euro/yen denominated stocks, bonds and real estate.

Long term, gold has always been the fool's investment. While gold is up 
gangbusters in the past 3 years, it is because of the declining dollar. 
There's higher return in just buying euros.

BAL

>From: BillK <[email-masked]>
>Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:05:08 +0100
>

---

From: Samantha Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:36:43 -0700

I did not say gold is primarily an investment.  It is an excellent 
hedge against a falling dollar and most likely worse to come.  Also 
there is considerable likelihood that the price of gold is currently 
being artificially suppressed.

- samantha

On Apr 26, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Brian Lee wrote:

>> worthlessness of fiat currency.  I exhort people to put a lot of 
>> their money into gold myself.  For a country to do so is quite 
>> prudent in these times .  It is not necessarily a warlike move at 
>> all.   Here is a great mystery.  Why is the price of gold flat with 
>> that kind of pressure in play?
>>
>>>
>> All of the banks are going to be hosed if they are called on more 
>> than a small fraction of their very highly leveraged positions.  I 
>> think you need better scapegoats.
>>
>> -s
>>