Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Enhancing Our Truth Orientation

From: "Brett Paatsch" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:36:36 +1100

Robin Hanson wrote:

>A draft of this new paper is available.  Comments welcome.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://hanson.gmu.edu/moretrue.pdf

Towards the end of your introduction you state:

"...over-estimating our ability not only helps us to attract social allies,
it also raises our self-esteem and happiness (Taylor, 1989), and can
motivate us to excel (Kitcher, 1990)".

And then:

"Depressed and mentally-ill people tend to be less self-deceived than
others."

Although I've heard similar things before; I studied social psych at uni
(1987), I'm still sceptical/curious as to how such a conclusion might be
drawn from experiment.

Are you just paraphrasing or summing up Kitcher and/or Taylor in the
second sentence above or is there other data?

If research is showing that two principles of extropy, Practical Optimism
and Rational Thinking are in tension, other extropy chat listers may be
interested too.

Brett Paatsch

Btw: Congrats on the tenure.

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---

From: Robin Hanson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:26:02 -0500

On 3/8/2005, Hal Finney wrote:
>I never responded to Robin's paper, http://hanson.gmu.edu/moretrue.pdf.
>This whole area of self-deception and disagreement is one of the most
>fascinating and paradoxical topics I have come across.

I'm glad you think so; you expressed yourself very well on the topic.

>One of the paradoxes of self-deception is that we probably don't really
>want to stop.  We just think we do.  ...  My approach is essentially
>to play the hand I'm dealt.  It may well be that my desire to avoid
>self-deception is ultimately fraudulent, but nevertheless this is what
>evolution has presented to me.  And so I will pursue it.

Of course one is likely to look back later and notice that one did not in 
fact pursue it as vigorously as one had planned.  That too is the hand we 
are dealt.  But yes, let us play it; it is the only hand we have.

>There is another reason as well.  Robin doesn't push it very hard,
>but the idea is that in the modern world, with all its complexity,
>self-deception is no longer an affordable luxury.

Not for society as a whole certainly.  But alas, it may be just fine for 
individuals who take the course of society as a whole as given.  Your 
comments about geopolitics are relevant here.  The choice to buy cyronics 
is one of the few exceptions I know of.

>I would like to see a pragmatically focussed "how to" document on
>overcoming self-deception.  ...

Me too!

>...  It is theoretically possible to carry a device which records all of 
>our conversations,

I wish this theory were better reduced to practice at the moment.

>An important first step is of course just to convince ourselves that
>the problem is real.  I have found that studying the literature on the
>topic is helpful.  Once you see how widespread and deep the phenomenon
>is, it's hard not to suspect that you are doing it too. ..

I have been impressed with how important the topic has seemed to many of 
the greatest thinkers throughout history.  Discussion of this goes way way 
back.

"The worst of all deceptions is self-deception." - Socrates (c.469-399 BC)

>I imagine it will create quite a stir when it makes it into the popular 
>press. ...  I also have found that the whole complex of papers by Robin 
>and others about the paradoxes of disagreement are useful as well, 
>although they are hard to understand and really need a book-length treatment.

I am hoping to start such a book soon, as my first big post tenure project.

>This brings up another topic, which is dealing with the down side of
>abandoning self-deception.  It can have negative impacts on people you
>are close to as well as on yourself. ...

This is at least half of the problem.  If we don't find functional 
substitutes for the benefits self-deception provides, it will remain well 
entrenched.

Robin Hanson  [email-masked]  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323