Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Athiesm in decline

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:20:33 -0600

Kevin Freels asks: 

>Religion changes over time. Which religion would be the easiest to change to
>something more transhumanistic? Or would it be better to create a new
>religion? What would it take to do that? Can a set of beliefs be created
>that can meld any partivular religion into something more extropian?

I might suggest something like "Adventism" appearing in HARVEST OF STARS by Poul
Anderson. In that book, the inevitable supremacy of the Sophotects (as he called
his artificial intelligences) was greeted with pleasure and anticipation by a
politcal group devoted to the advent of a super-human mode of consciousness. One
of the characters daydreams that one day his loyalty to the coming super-race of
pure intelligences will be rewarded by an upload into an eternal computerized
fiction of bliss and perfection: a robotic paradise. 

What is interesting here is that the author takes reasonable political faction,
(the por-reason, pro-progress group) but shows how the natural human hunger for
the lording it over others turns them into tyrants; and the natural human
longing for the supernatural turns their political philosophy into a religion,
complete with a promise of life eternal in the New Garden.  

Anderson makes his Adventists his black-hats, not necessarily, I suppose,
because the author has anything against progress in artificial intelligence, but
because any movement or any idea, even a reasonable one, when it becomes an idol
to which one is willing to sacrifice other virtues and scruples, becomes
all-consuming, and hence unreasonable. 

(The novel, by the way is a monumental work, the crowning triumph of a lifetime
of work in the field, and it astonishes and disappoints me that this book is not
more well known.) 

The idea of designing a religion to a deliberate purpose is an intriguing one,
which has also been the topic of speculations in science fiction. GATHER
DARKNESS by Fritz Leiber, or the "Great Galactic Spirit" of Asimov's FOUNDATION
spring to mind, not to mention the more obscure SIXTH COLUMN by Robert Heinlein.
  I note that in these optimistic tales, the con men who fool the rubes with
their made-believe religions win. DUNE by Frank Herbert is an exception; one of
his themes is that the Messiah cannot control the events he sets in motion, the
Jihad world-destroying he sparks cannot be stopped. 

Serious students of the matter might be advised to adapt Transhumanism to an
existing faith, rather than invent one whole cloth. This has two advantages:
one, God may spare you, despite your hubris, if you unwittingly do His work for
Him. Two, you have a pre-sold market. 

Having said that, I am unsure which religion to recommend to the cause.
Neopaganism or pantheism might be ripe for exploitation on this matter, since no
Acquinas yet has risen among them to codify their beliefs. The belief in
reincarnation, which some New Age types admire, could be used to promote the
idea that the current human race has a duty to create a superior species of
child-races, into which we will all one day be reborn. Oriental religions, with
their otherworldliness and concept of reincarnation as an eternal trap, a wheel
of punishment meant to be escaped, would not lend themselves easily to the
enterprise. A puritan Christianity, whose members were convinced that working to
better the state of men on earth and create a race of after-men to replace them,
is possible, but unlikely, within the Christian world-view: a puritan work-ethic
and a devotion to a higher cause, however, would be good allies. I am not sure
how, if at all, Mohammadism could be suborned to the Transhumanist cause: the
doctrine of fatalism and utter submission to God do not lend themselves to
notions of progress toward uploaded immortality in the computerspace. 

John C. Wright

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From: Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:54:29 +0000

>complete with a promise of life eternal in the New Garden.  
I suspect that we will be engineering ourselves genetically for quite 
some time before true AI appears, so there will be a considerable 
'enhanced' faction ready to greet it.

>...
Well, I'd say that Transhumanism in itself could well become a religion. 
It has all the features of one.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

---

From: Joseph Bloch <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:43:31 -0500

Excellent post, John; I would make only one comment...

>Jihad world-destroying he sparks cannot be stopped. 

The theme of the engineered religion is actually approached in several 
places in the Dune series. I note specifically the idea that the Bene 
Gesserit seeded various worlds with messianic faiths that were 
specifically tied to the appearance of Bene Gesserit Mothers (the 
"Missionaria Protectiva"). As Sparknotes puts it (and I use that only 
because it is one of the first sites to come up in Google, and is a fair 
assessment of the topic):

"The Bene Gesserit use the Missionaria Protectiva to spread contrived 
legends and prophecies to developing worlds. Bene Gesserit can exploit 
these legends to earn the respect of the native inhabitants, who believe 
in the contrived legends." (http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/dune/themes.html)

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal":
http://www.humanenhancement.com

New Jersey Transhumanist Association:
http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
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From: Joseph Bloch <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:44:46 -0500

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Well, I'd say that Transhumanism in itself could well become a 
> religion. It has all the features of one.
>

Can you expand on this? What sort of features do Transhumanism and 
religion have in common?

Not saying I disagree... just interested in hearing your take.

Joseph

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From: Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:02:07 +0000

> Not saying I disagree... just interested in hearing your take.
Original Sin (being Human), Salvation (technology), Apocalypse 
(Singularity), God (AI), Miracles (nanotech), Heaven (Posthumanity, 
uploading)

"A Romantic longing for a lost world that never was, but which may yet be.
A call from a Middle Earth that lies in the future, not the mythical past.
A faith in the transformation of Humanity into something infinitely better.
A world renewed and cleansed - becoming a celebration of life and Earth.
The excitement of discovery and the adventure of magical technologies.
An exploration stretching from the subatomic to the trans-galactic.
Freedom from material constraints.
Mind freed from matter.
Imagination freed from necessity.
The world made fluid and malleable.
A new Heaven and a new Earth where all tears shall be wiped away."

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-

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From: Brian Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:54:26 -0600

> Can you expand on this? What sort of features do Transhumanism and 

Noooooooo... Not again please. This has been done to death several times 
in the past - see all those dead horses scattered around? This is one of 
them.

I suggest reading the WTA FAQ:

http://www.transhumanism.org/resources/faq.html#53

and availing yourself of Google if you're unaware of the history here.
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/
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From: Emlyn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:33:33 +1030

I don't know what Dirk has in mind specifically, but here's a
good/funny site about categorizing religions...

http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/2R10.html

Extropians would be categorised as 04T-3A1C, Transhumanists as
04S-1B1C. Note that I've used the Atheist's category for afterlife "no
one goes anywhere", but there probably needs to be another entry
instead for "no one dies, but if they do then they go nowhere". Also,
both groups truly meet online I reckon.

Not that I think Extropy or Transhumanism are religions ;-)

Emlyn

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com   * blogs * music * software *

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From: Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:08:44 +0000

Brian Atkins wrote:

> Noooooooo... Not again please. This has been done to death several 
> times in the past - see all those dead horses scattered around? This 
> is one of them.
>

"Religious fanaticism, superstition, and intolerance are not acceptable 
among transhumanists."
I like the moralising - another feature of religion.
But then, that's why I'm here and not there.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-

---

From: Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:12:01 +0000

>Not that I think Extropy or Transhumanism are religions ;-)
I forgot Resurrection of the Dead (Cryonics).
As for Transhumanism being a religion, if Asatru is a religion so is 
Transhumanism.
BTW, the site cannot categorize Asatru

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-

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From: Joseph Bloch <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:28:06 -0500

Actually, Brian, I know quite a bit about what the WTA FAQ has to say on 
the subject. Right now, in fact, I'm in the process of sending out 
hard-copies of them to new WTA members.

I was curious as to what Dirk had to say on the subject, because of his 
particular religious background, which is similar to my own in many 
respects.

Apologies if you find the subject tedious. I find it fascinating and 
potentially quite practical.

Joseph

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From: Emlyn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:28:43 +1030

> But then, that's why I'm here and not there.

Transhumanism can't be a religion, otherwise someone would be able to
show me whose making all the money...

-- 
Emlyn

---

From: Emlyn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:13:22 +1030

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:25:00 +0000, Dirk Bruere <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Actually, very little.
> Even so, it doesn't matter what the WTA *claims*, it's what is going to
> happen that counts.
> The WTA FAQ (and that of the Extropians) is merely an attempt to
> engineer the meme to the liking of those running the show at present.
> Transhumanism, and its definitions, are far from a done deal.
> Which is one reason why Hughes effectively forced me off their list for
> undermining his POV.

*GASP* ... you mean you are not wowed by the idea of socialist
transhumanism? Shame on you, Dirk!

:-)  <-  explicitly flagging ironic tone for statement above.

-- 
Emlyn