Subject: CryoNet #26098 - #26100

From: CryoNet <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Apr 2005 09:00:00 -0000

CryoNet - Thu 28 Apr 2005

    #26098: A storage facility in France? [John de Rivaz]
    #26099: Let us find out if long term storage is possible in an European country [Michael Saxer]
    #26100: Re: RAW [Keith Henson]

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Message #26098
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Subject: A storage facility in France?
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:30:55 +0100

> What is the minimum surface [ie area] for a storage facility?

I would guess about 200 sq m, but ideally more. I think what some cryonics
service providers have done is to have a larger building and then rent out a
bit of it until needed, but this depends on the freedom allowed to landlords
by lawyers and politicians to get rid of tenants when they want the space.

Headroom is important to lift people in and out of dewars. I seem to recall
a figure of 14 feet being mentioned somewhere. (4, 1/2 metres approx)

A more serious objection to your proposal is the hostility of the French
authorities to cryopreservation. The history of French law as relating to
the good of the individual versus the good of the state is not encouraging.
(Napoleon and Petain must have left influences, both on the statute book and
the work methods of public officials). However the European Union's
universal human rights ideas may help. Incidentally, has there been any
resolution of the Martinot case, which I think went to the European Court of
Human Rights?

Also I think it is fanciful to expect people to travel from all over Europe
for training sessions. Trying to do the same thing within the UK has proved
difficult enough. http://www.cryonics.uk.com/ And then can people really
leave their jobs at a moment's notice for a real cryopreservation? The
people who do transports from Albin's have this is as their job, so there is
no question of abandoning another activity to do it. If they are not doing a
cryonics transport, they are earning money for their enterprise by
performing regular burials or cremations.

Of course if there was enough money to keep people paid on standby (and
gainfully employed on something else that earns the enterprise money when
they are not cryopreserving the two or three people a year that need it)
then it would work - provided again that you can get people able to do the
job and willing to move to near the facility. Siting the facility in a
desirable area may encourage people to go and live there, but of course
property prices would be higher. As I remember it, early cryonics facilities
were in cheap run down areas where no one would want to live, and were run
by their owners using very crude freezing methods.

Anyone reading cryonet will have seen announcements concerning the CI SA
agreement. http://www.cryonics.org/SA/Suspended_Animation.html It will be
interesting to see how this works out in the USA over the next few years. In
theory I cannot see why SA could not be employed to cryopreserve and deliver
patients to a European storage facility, and this would answer many of the
logistical problems I have mentioned (having people available etc.) However
the likely costs would be difficult for many of the European cryonics
people, and of course there is there are the delays, costs and uncertainties
involved with the SA team making the flight from Florida.

The problem always remains that there are few people serious about cryonics
and they are too diffuse -- they live too far apart. But a facility within
Europe must attract a few people who are concerned about transport  to, and
storage in, the USA. Someone will do it sometime, but it won't be easy.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

> Message #26097
> From: [email-masked]
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:39:52 EDT
> Subject: Re: CryoNet #26084  other countries
>

> I think a solution would be to build cryostats and do the training in
France
> where there is a facility ready to use and limit the UK to a simple garage
> sized site. When there will be more money, a larger facility could be
built.
> Nobody has a 50 sq. meter backyard surface for a prefabricated shelter?
>
> Yvan Bozzonetti.

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Message #26099
From: "Michael Saxer" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Let us find out if long term storage is possible in an European country
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:17:39 +0200

Dear friends of cryonics
I founded a company in December 2003 for cryonics in Germany. Please read http://www.biostasis.de/ .
I started petitions in different German counties with the result that in Hessen and Sachsen-Anhalt long term storage is discussed by the governments. In Sachsen there are thoughts of this, too.
Is there anybody who would work together with me to find out if in European countries long term storage is allowed ? Maybe in Eastern European countries ?
Please contact me: Michael Saxer, [email-masked]
Many regards
Michael Saxer

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Message #26100
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:15:02 -0400
From: Keith Henson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAW

At 09:00 AM 27/04/05 +0000, anthony <[email-masked]> wrote:

snip

 >> From: Keith Henson <[email-masked]>
 >> Subject: Robert Anton Wilson in Hospital
 >>
 >> I don't know how many RAW fans there are on this list, but I just found 
out
 >> he is in a hospital in Santa Cruz.  I don't know how serious, but Bob 
is 73.

 >I've looked online but can't find any news stories verifying this: could
 >you provide a link?

No.  But if you want I can forward you private email about his situation.

 >> Several years before I had to escape the US, I tried to set up suspension
 >> arrangements for Bob and his wife Arlen.  Bob was agreeable but Arlen 
nixed
 >> it.  Since she died in 1999 a cryonics organization should be able to sign
 >> up Bob Wilson.  I have not asked him.  Being out of the country puts a
 >> damper on such things.

 >If RAW was interested, wouldn't he have already made arrangements?

There is a major difference between being interested and having the 
considerable funding needed when you are 73.

 >> Most of you know that Alcor signed up Tim Leary.  He went with the now
 >> defunct organization when Alcor split some years ago and was lost in 1996
 >> due to cultural insensitivity on the part of a cryonics technician.

 >What does this mean? Could you explain how Leary was lost?

No.  There were postings about it at the time.  My opinion about what 
happened is extremely biased.  Perhaps even viciously biased.

 >> The PR would be pure gravy.  My future life would be improved by having 
RAW
 >> alive.  I can't afford the whole amount, but pledge $3000 if the rest can
 >> be raised some way or the other.

 >Let's try and contact RAW first to see if he wants suspension. Any leads?

I have contacts who can talk to him as well as his email and phone 
numbers.  Will pass to anyone who wants to take a lead in this project.

 >> Keith Henson
 >
 >> PS.  Bob Wilson's daughter Luna, was brutally murdered in 1976 when she 
was
 >> 15.  Her brain was recovered and is in suspension.

 >Who's suspending the brain now?

It was originally ACS so I presume CI now has Luna.

 >I've read RAW and like him, so thanks in advance for answering my questions.

 >Anthony

Any time.

Keith Henson

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