Subject: Re: [Catalina22] Mooring ball and Dinghy

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:07:19 -0500

TurK, Chip, Baynard, other listers on a mooring:

What is the proper size / method of the anchor of the mooring ball?

-- 
Dan Schafer
Traverse City, MI
"SeaBatical"
1983 Swing Keel~#11577

turk <[email-masked]> wrote:

>Thanks Dan
>
>I appreciate the comment.  There are too many things in this world that
>get in the way of the things that really matter. I look at you and
>other members of this list as friends.  We can learn a lot from each
>other about sailing, but sometimes we can learn even more about
>ourselves if we treat each other with respect.
>
>As for the mooring bridle, I got the info from Bayard Gross.   The
>fiberglass tower should work well.  I can post some close up pictures
>of how I attached it to the mooring ball if you like.  You have to be
>carefull or you will split the hollow fiberglass.  I covered the glass
>with a piece of plastic tubing then filled it with plastic from a heat
>gun.   I have a special tool to wrap stainless wire and used it to
>attach a large eye screw to the mooring ring.  The rest will be shown
>in a picture or two to follow.  I have Bayard's post here somewhere.
>Ah, here it is :
>
>Chip and Turk:
> 
>I have had my 1981 model C-22 (#9911) on a mooring in the summer for
>twelve years.
> 
>I found that it really pays to do things myself for setting up a
>mooring for a C-22, especially for the pennant and/or bridle, which is
>(or are) the lines leading from the “ball” to the boat.
> 
>I will only address the pennant and/or bridle.  I own my mooring, and
>there are other matters regarding things from winterization, to
>inspection, to chain and underwater lines employed that I could get
>into, but perhaps that is for another time.
> 
>Let’s start that we have a float or ball with a metal ring and we need
>to affix lines from that ring to the two C-22 bow cleats, the black
>ones as seen on page 16 of Chip’s web site, which are exactly like
>mine.
> 
>After experimentation and several years of experience, I feel the ideal
>length for lines from a float or ball to the bow cleats on a C-22
>should be about 6 feet, give or take a few inches.  I have tried
>longer, I have tried shorter, and I feel very strongly that 6 feet is
>perfect.  I realize there are some who will argue about that length,
>but I assure you, many years experience has proven this wise.
> 
>The next issue is weather to have two 6 foot lines with eyes come off
>the ring at the ball or to use a single line from the ball that is then
>split into two ends with eyes to create a bridle.  My feeling is that a
>bridle will more evenly distribute the load to the two cleats than
>separate lines.  The nature of things is that separate lines will
>undoubtedly be of unequal length.  As such, one line will always pull
>harder than the other putting more stress onto its particular cleat. 
>With a bridle, while the line eyes may not be perfectly equally distant
>from the ball ring, the load is ultimately transferred to a single line
>going to the ball ring and as such will exert a more uniform pull on
>the two cleats.
> 
>The general design for a bridle is a three strand line with a metal
>thimble end at the end that attaches to the ball ring which can be
>either on top or below the ball.  A shackle, properly wired, is secured
>between this eye and the ball ring.  At the other end of this three
>strand line there is an eye that is secured to one of the vessel's
>cleats.  About midway between the thimble eye and the cleat eye, a
>second piece of three strand line is spliced (conceptually as
>interwoven) into this first line.  At the end of this second line there
>is an eye splice that is put through the other cleat.  The two eye
>splices when pulled tight against the thimble eye should be equidistant
>from the thimble eye therefore providing as much of an equal pull as
>possible.
> 
>Nevertheless, for use on C-22 cleats, as well as many other vessels,
>there is an inherent disadvantage in employing this three strand twist
>rope bridle.  To properly affix an eye to a cleat (assuming an open
>base and for a c-22 at least eight inch eyes), the eye should be passed
>through the hole in the base and then brought up and over and looped
>onto the horns.  (An alternative, which requires a very large eye, is
>to loop the eye over the horns, then lay one side over the other
>creating a loop or bight that is brought up and over onto the horns. 
>Since one will rarely find eyes large enough to perform this, it is
>almost nonsensical to remember this.)
> 
>For C-22 cleats, this means that the tree strand line cannot be any
>larger than about 3/8 inch diameter.  Larger than 3/8 inch diameter,
>and the eye will not pass through the base of the cleat.  Been there,
>done that.  For coming off the bow, two 3/8 inch three strand lines are
>quite sufficient.  But as these two 3/8 inch lines become one 3/8 inch
>line, the metal thimble at the end of the line does not have enough
>heft and materiel to survive a summer in salt water.  While a stainless
>steel thimble, as opposed to a galvanized thimble (which these days are
>often imported and of poor quality), could be used, the 3/8 inch line
>itself after a season’s use will be so tired and dirty, that one will
>need to replace the entire bridle.
> 
>An alternative is to use a line about 13 feet with eyes at each end
>skipping the thimble.  The middle of this is secured to a shackle with
>a cow hitch, or preferably a clove hitch.  The shackle is put on the
>ball ring.  The cow hitch will become loose and the shackle will chafe
>the line.  The clove hitch will stay tight longer, but it too may
>loosen to where the metal shackle chafes the line.  Hence, I do not
>like this method.
> 
>Switching to larger ½ inch three strand line, will provide a thimble
>that will successfully survive the summer, and possibly part of the
>following season but, of course, the eyes will not pass through the bow
>cleats.  Even with say eighteen inch eyes and using the alternative
>cleat method described above, one will probably not successfully secure
>the eyes to the cleats as the ½ inch line will not rest well on the
>horns.
> 
>Besides three strand twist rope, there is braided rope, both single and
>double braided.  (There is also braided rope that is akin to both three
>strand twist and braided rope.  As I have no experience in this style
>rope, I will not discuss it here.)  As we need rope for a mooring that
>has good UV resistance, wear, and strength, I will discuss only use
>with double braided line, leaving single braided line to performance
>oriented running rigging.  The general advantage of double braided rope
>over three strand twist rope is that is much more pliable.  In fact,
>the eye splice of ½ inch double braided rope may even pass through the
>base of a C-22 cleat, not to mention, that it can probably perform the
>alternative cleat method with big enough eyes.
>   
>However, I have not found a fashion by which double braided rope can be
>made into a bridle like three strand twist.  This means one would then
>need to make a pennant about 12 feet and attach it to a shackle with a
>clove hitch or a cow hitch and the shackle to the ball ring as
>described above.  This, as mentioned, will expose the line to chafing
>from the shackle, and thereby, is not considered good practice.
> 
>My solution is a combination of three strand twist and double braided
>rope. 
>   
>For attachment to the ball ring I use ½ inch three strand twist with a
>metal thimble eye and then another eye of about the same diameter as
>the thimble eye at the other end.  From the inside of the two eyes this
>line is about three feet.  This line is fairly easy to construct and
>the thimble should last at least a summer season.  Further, as this
>part of the pennant will drag in the water during slack periods, it
>will become dirty and covered with barnacles, crabs, mussels, and
>slime.  However, it is reasonably economical and easy to replace
>annually, and I think one should do that.
> 
>For the other three feet of the pennant, I construct, with 3/8 inch
>double braided rope, a line with two 8 to 12 inch eyes at each end (the
>horns on the Catalina cleats are about 7 inches wide as I recall). 
>This line is about seven feet from the outermost eye end to the other. 
>Seven feet is necessary to achieve a length of three feet away from the
>three strand twist eye since one needs compensation for the clove hitch
>and wrap onto the cleats.  This with the three feet of three strand
>twist line produces the overall 6 foot pennant.  This line I bend onto
>the eye of the three strand line with a clove hitch which with its two
>eye ends come away equidistantly from the clove hitch.  As this is a
>rope to rope connection, the issue of chafe is almost nil.  The clove
>hitch stays tight on the three strand twist rope eye as this is softer
>and more pliable than a metal shackle or ring.
>   
>The eyes pass well through the cleat bases, which are just like Chip’s,
>and then the eye is brought up and over onto the horns.  In essence I
>achieve the benefits of ½ inch line with a metal thimble on the ball
>ring, 3/8 inch double braided line in the cleats, and a bridle all in
>one.
> 
>The double braided line secured to the cleats on a C-22 will not
>chafe.  In fact, I have used this same double braided line on my vessel
>for at least six years with barely even negligible wear.  About the
>only area that has shown any wear is in the clove hitch.
> 
>As making eyes in double braided rope is difficult, as well as the rope
>costing more than three strand twist rope, the ability to use this line
>for many, many years is quite advantageous.  One only replaces the
>lower part of the pennant which is less expensive and much easier to
>construct.
> 
>But wait there is more!, as the commercials say.
> 
>If you are to make up a second of these double braided lines with the
>two eyes, you then have a means to use the bow cleats to secure to
>temporary moorings and to your anchor rode.  For temporary moorings,
>bend the double braided line with a cow hitch onto the eye of the
>pennant of the temporary mooring.  A cow hitch is fine for this
>temporary set up.  For the anchor rode, make a slip knot in the anchor
>rode with the end attached to the anchor pulling the slip knot big
>smaller.  Bend the double braided line onto the big of the slip knot. 
>The double braided line with the cow hitch keeps the slip knot from
>collapsing.  This arrangement should be fine for temporary anchoring.
>   
>And the big bonus here is that Chip Ford can get rid of those awful
>chucks and that toe and knee mashing deck cleat that mess up the very
>smooth lines of a C-22. 
>   
>It is far easier and better to modify rope and lines to match your
>boat, rather than modifying your boat to match ropes and lines.
> 
>Hope this is helpful.
> 
>I realize both Chip and Turk are “on the hard” now, but I will still
>wish them wind behind their backs as this is a lot warmer than facing
>it right on and helps push you through the snow.
> 
>Bayard Gross
>C-22 #9911
>Baby Blue
>Greenwich, CT
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Turk
>Miss Kitty
>
>
>
>On Mar 15, 2005, at 2:53 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
>
>> Turk~
>>
>> I'd like to respond to your mooring solution and dinghy painting...
>> but first, some unfinished business. A week or so ago, we had a
>> misunderstanding about how I was collecting feedback on my
>> SeaBatical's new website.  You offered a heart-felt apology for some
>> of the things that you had said.  I never did get a chance to thank
>> you for taking the high road .... I knew sailors were a good lot, and
>> you've reaffirmed that.
>>
>> Now ... for your new projects.  I plan to put SeaBatical on a mooring
>> as well for most of this summer.  I don't know much about all the ins
>> and outs, but have read as much as I can about various approaches.
>> Yours is well thought out in all aspects.  Did Baynard offer his
>> expertise directly to you... or did I miss a post?  What kind of
>> anchor to you have at the bottom of that mooring ball?  I'm gonna have
>> to make the same setup you have there [I even have a long fiberglass
>> pole from an old golf course flag].  Hope you can answer any questions
>> I have as I start to construct it.
>>
>> The dinghy looks very good ... how old is that inflatable?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan Schafer
>> Traverse City, MI
>> "SeaBatical"
>> 1983 Swing Keel~#11577
>>
>>
>> Turk <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>
>>> As one project gets finished I would like to show all the new mooring
>>> bridle (thanks to Baylard's instructions) and the new flooring (well,
>>> painted with 3 coats of polyurethan paint) in my Dinghy.  The bridle
>>> uses 3/4 3 line rope with one galvanized steel thimbull for the
>>> attachment to the underside of the ball, and another plain spliced eye
>>> to run the double braided line to.  I am considering splitting that
>>> line
>>> and making 2 knots to the triple braided line just for security
>>> reasons.  If one line were to break, the other would not get untied.
>>>
>>> http://www.elmhurstprop.com/mooring/index.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> The mast you see on the mooring ball is a new invention (well, I
>>> actually stole the idea from another manufacturer) that allows me to
>>> point the nose to the mooring ball and actually see where it is at
>>> (the
>>> red ball on top) as the first mate picks up the the bridle and hooks
>>> on
>>> to the cleats.  The weight of the chain should keep the mast up (light
>>> weight fiberglass fishing pole) and keep it quite vertical with the
>>> rope
>>> hung on it.
>>>
>>> I guess I'm looking for another solution than using the old boat hook.
>>> I always pull into the mooring field and then scramble after I forget
>>> to
>>> get out the hook.  Now the first mate just has to reach over and pick
>>> up
>>> the rope.
>>>
>>> Let me know what you think!
>>>
>>>
>>> Turk
>>> Miss Kitty Kitty
>>> Canfield, Ohio
>>> #3520   Cat 1974
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --------------
>>> For information on unsubscribing or contacting the list owner, go to:
>>> www.chipford.com/list_instructs.htm
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>Tom T
>

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---

From: "Ken G. Brown" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:21:56 -0700

Here's some info on what our local group does on the lake here.
http://www.geocities.com/alta_sailing/wab_destinations/wab_destinations.htm
    Ken

At 6:07 PM -0500 on 3/15/05,  [email-masked] is rumored 
>What is the proper size / method of the anchor of the mooring ball?
<>
-- 
Ken G. Brown, Leduc, Alberta, Canada
1988 C22 Swing Keel #14764