Subject: [extropy-chat] Article on transhumanism on the leading Italian weekly magazine Panorama

From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:33:32 +0100

Article on transhumanism on the leading Italian weekly magazine
Panorama. The article is not overly friendly to transhumanism, but is
contributing to spreading the memes. Last sentence: "when someone will
knock to your door to sell mind uploading, don't say that we did not
warn you".
http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/belli-e-immortali-ecco-chi-vuole-creare-il-superuomo/
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From: Damien Broderick <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:08:16 -0600

At 03:33 PM 3/9/2005 +0100, GP wrote:

>Last sentence: "when someone will

What's their argument against it?

Damien Broderick

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From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:22:00 +0100

No rational argument against, more like a subliminal appeal to
reacting instiictively against, but the article is not that bad you
know. Following Fukuyama, the author agrees that we have to be taken
seriously, and that maybe "our" future will even happen.
One step at a time, we are already moving from "it is impossible" to
"it is maybe possible but it is not a good idea". At some point we
will reach "I always thought it was a good idea" (Clarke I think).
G.

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From: "scerir" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:42:10 +0100

> What's their argument against it?

There is no specific argument against "uploading".
There is no specific argument against ">H".
There is a fear, in the Italian establishment,
I mean the political establishment, that a new
movement, techno-phile, death-phobic, trans-national
too, may have some audience, some political power.
Remember the Green Party, in Germany, many many 
years ago? 
s.

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From: Damien Broderick <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:10:27 -0600

At 07:22 PM 3/9/2005 +0100, GP wrote:

>No rational argument against [uploading], more like a subliminal appeal to
>know.

Okay, but what I'm wondering is *what* they mean by `uploading the mind', 
and why they disapprove? Is the `Yuck' factor--`Oh, how creepy, a brain in 
a vat!'

Or doubts about continuous identity throughout the transfer--`That's not 
Kenny, it's just a copy... and the bastards have *killed* Kenny!' (I'd go 
along with that one, usually.)

Or `It's unnatural! Stop it!'

If the latter, why is this any different from their deciding that 
homosexuality, or education for women, or eating cabbages, is disgusting, 
unnatural, and awful even to think about?

Damien Broderick

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From: "Gina Miller" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:38:51 -0800

Is this article in English somewhere? 

G`
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Damien Broderick 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Article on transhumanism on the leadingItalian weekly magazine Panorama

  Damien Broderick

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From: Alfio Puglisi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:25:59 +0100 (CET)

>and why they disapprove? Is the `Yuck' factor--`Oh, how creepy, a brain in

Yes. Please note that Panorama (="landscape") is a popular weekly
magazine, not really going deep into subjects. Uploading is mentioned very
quickly at the end of the article. Quick translation:

<begin translation, style="quick, dirty and probably very badly done">

...[transhumanists] seek to achieve "superintelligence". That would be
done also thanks to "uploading", which is "the transfer of a mind from a
biological brain to a computer". An uploaded person, transhumanist
documents say, could live in a virtual reality.

So, it's like a Philip Dick story. The future view is one of cyborgs and
robot men. We can ignore the crys of Fukuyama, considering it science
fiction. But when someone will knock to your door to sell mind uploading,
don't say that we did not warn you.

<end translation>

The general tone of the article is quite on the negative. It starts
quoting a lot Fukuyama, then some replies from J. Hughes, N. Bostrom and
some not better identified "documents". The focus is entirely on physical
augmentation - living longer or forever, being beautiful, being
superintelligent.

Alfio

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From: Alfio Puglisi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:37:02 +0100 (CET)

Nope. This Google translation's link is almost readable:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.panorama.it%2Fscienze%2Fscoperte%2Farticolo%2Fix1-A020001029603&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Don't know why google is obsessed with women. "morte" (=death) is
translated as "dead women", while "Casa Bianca" (=White House) is
translated as "white woman" :-)

Alfio

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From: Samantha Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:41:51 -0800

On Mar 9, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Okay, but what I'm wondering is *what* they mean by `uploading the 
> mind', and why they disapprove? Is the `Yuck' factor--`Oh, how creepy, 
> a brain in a vat!'

Well, I would at least ask some questions before signing up.  I would 
want at least some guarantees of being fully myself in all ways not 
dependent on having a physical body.   Next i would want to know what 
rights with what guarantees are enforced (or somehow self-enforceable). 
  The perfection of oppression and of endless torture and other 
approximations of hell might too easily await me once uploaded if 
unscrupulous persons or AIs gained control.

I doubt i would be the first volunteer.

- samantha