Subject: CryoNet #26090 - #26097

From: CryoNet <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Apr 2005 09:00:01 -0000

CryoNet - Wed 27 Apr 2005

    #26090: To Francious and Yvan, re simulations [Thomas Donaldson]
    #26091: RAW [anthony]
    #26092: Dartmouth Researchers Find Where Musical Memories Are Stored In The Brain [The NanoAging Institute]
    #26093: (-152 degree C) ultra-freezers [Doug Skrecky]
    #26094: ceroid, lipofuscin, beta-amyloid, plaque [Doug Skrecky]
    #26095: Re: CryoNet #26077 To Donaldson. [Azt28]
    #26096: Uploading (3.ii.1) First bits. [Azt28]
    #26097: Re: CryoNet #26084  other countries [Azt28]

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Message #26090
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:10:16 -0400
From: Thomas Donaldson <[email-masked]>
Subject: To Francious and Yvan, re simulations

For Francois:

Your simulation of a human being raises a variety of problems. First, it
is not explicitly parallel --- though perhaps you didn't bother to 
mention that. Second, if this simulation runs for only a few seconds,
it may not take up too much space or materials, but if not then you're
suggesting a VERY large project. Basically you have suggested simulating
the world (unless your simulated human has been locked in that room
for his whole life and remains unaware of anything else). Third, the
simulation must have parts that act simultaneously --- something an
ordinary present-day computer could not do.

For Yvan:

When I said that no matter how fast you had your time-sharing single
computer running, if it did not run all its neurons SIMULTANEOUSLY
then sooner or later it will run into problems. Yes, the faster it
runs the longer it will take to meet the simultaneous events in
the universe disastrously.

I note that you have not discussed this problem at all. Please do so.

A discussion of just how your system will simulate a brain, too, would
be useful here. I have pointed out that unlike what people thought only
15 years ago, our brains are biologically active, growing new neurons
and new connections between old neurons. How do you propose to implement
this growth feature? This question becomes particularly important 
because such growth apparently plays a role in learning and the formation
of new memories.

            Best wishes and long long life to all,

                Thomas Donaldson

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Message #26091
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:49:22 -0600
From: anthony <[email-masked]>
Subject: RAW
References: <[email-masked]>

> Message #26080
> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:25:24 -0400
> From: Keith Henson <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Robert Anton Wilson in Hospital
> 
> I don't know how many RAW fans there are on this list, but I just found out 
> he is in a hospital in Santa Cruz.  I don't know how serious, but Bob is 73.

I've looked online but can't find any news stories verifying this: could 
you provide a link?

> Several years before I had to escape the US, I tried to set up suspension 
> arrangements for Bob and his wife Arlen.  Bob was agreeable but Arlen nixed 
> it.  Since she died in 1999 a cryonics organization should be able to sign 
> up Bob Wilson.  I have not asked him.  Being out of the country puts a 
> damper on such things.

If RAW was interested, wouldn't he have already made arrangements?

> Most of you know that Alcor signed up Tim Leary.  He went with the now 
> defunct organization when Alcor split some years ago and was lost in 1996 
> due to cultural insensitivity on the part of a cryonics technician.

What does this mean? Could you explain how Leary was lost?

> The PR would be pure gravy.  My future life would be improved by having RAW 
> alive.  I can't afford the whole amount, but pledge $3000 if the rest can 
> be raised some way or the other.

Let's try and contact RAW first to see if he wants suspension. Any leads?

> Keith Henson
> 
> PS.  Bob Wilson's daughter Luna, was brutally murdered in 1976 when she was 
> 15.  Her brain was recovered and is in suspension.

Who's suspending the brain now?

I've read RAW and like him, so thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Anthony

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Message #26092
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:00:52 -0500
From: The NanoAging Institute <[email-masked]>
Subject: Dartmouth Researchers Find Where Musical Memories Are Stored In The Brain

Dartmouth Researchers Find Where Musical Memories Are Stored In The Brain

A group of Dartmouth researchers has learned that the brain's auditory
cortex, the part that handles information from your ears, holds on to
musical memories.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050425202958.htm

--Jon

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Message #26093
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:07:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Skrecky <[email-masked]>
Subject: (-152 degree C) ultra-freezers

Theriogenology. 2005 Jan 1;63(1):72-82.
Cryopreservation of semen in the dog: use of ultra-freezers of -152
degrees C as a viable alternative to liquid nitrogen.
  This experimental work was carried out to validate the use of a -152
degrees C ultra-low temperature freezer to freeze and store canine
semen. The semen of three dogs was pooled and processed to obtain a final
dilution with a concentration of 100 x 10(6) spermatozoa/mL, glycerol at
5% and Equex at 0.5%. Then, four freezing protocols were tested to
evaluate the cryosurvival of sperm at 1, 7, 30, 60 and 120 days after
freezing: (I) semen was frozen and stored in liquid nitrogen; (II) semen
was frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored in the ultra-low freezer at
-152 degrees C; (III) semen was frozen in the vapour of liquid nitrogen
and stored in the ultra-low freezer at -152 degrees C; (IV) semen was
frozen and stored in the ultra-low freezer at -152 degrees C. Data were
statistically analyzed by repeated measures analysis of variance to
determine the effect of the freezing protocol and time on the sperm
characteristics assessed. The percentages of sperm motility and of
dead/live spermatozoa were similar throughout the experimental period,
with no significant differences (P < 0.05) to be observed between four
different freezing techniques tested. At 120 days after freezing, the
percentage of abnormal cells and the percentage of sperm cells with
abnormal acrosome were not significantly different between the freezing
techniques. Although the number of dogs used was slightly low, in vitro
results of this preliminary study showed that the use of ultra-freezers
at -152 degrees C to freeze and store canine semen could be a viable
alternative to liquid nitrogen.

Cryo Letters. 2002 May-Jun;23(3):167-72
Is sperm cryopreservation at -150 degree C a feasible alternative?
  A series of experiments was carried out to validate a -150 degree C
ultra-low temperature freezer for its possible use to properly freeze and
store semen. In the first part, crude sample handling was simulated to
see whether temperature of stored samples was maintained within a safe
range; also, the freezing point and latent heat of fusion plateau of a
semen extender were monitored. In the second part, buck semen was (i)
frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored in the ultra-low freezer, (ii)
frozen and stored in the ultra-low freezer, and (iii) frozen and stored
in liquid nitrogen, to compare sperm cryosurvival between freezing
methods. Both, frequent removal of samples and long opening of the
freezer door did not negatively affect stored sample temperature; latent
heat of fusion plateau was 5 minutes long. Semen stored either at -150
degree C or at -196 degree C cryosurvived similarly after 2 days and after
2 months of cryopreservation.

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Message #26094
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Skrecky <[email-masked]>
Subject: ceroid, lipofuscin, beta-amyloid, plaque

[Call it the Garbage or even Gunk theory of aging. What toxins your body
can not get rid of will eventually kill it, seems at least superficially
to be reasonable. Plaque has been strongly implicated in cardiovascular
related mortality. Beta-amyloid gets the nod for Alzheimer's dementia.
Ditto for ceroid and macular degeneration. A component of lipofuscin
called ceramide has recently been identified as the keystone of that
signature event in human aging: menopause. The impact of accumulating gunk
on human maximum lifespan remains unknown. However it is doubtful if
large increases in lifespan would be possible, without addressing this
issue.]

Neurobiol Dis. 2005 Jun-Jul;19(1-2):194-9
Cathepsin D-deficient Drosophila recapitulate the key features of
neuronal ceroid lipofuscinoses.
  Neuronal ceroid lipofuscinoses (NCLs) are a group of lysosomal storage
disorders characterized pathologically by neuronal accumulation of
autofluorescent storage material and neurodegeneration. An ovine NCL form
is caused by a recessive point mutation in the cathepsin D gene, which
encodes a lysosomal aspartyl protease. This mutation results in typical
NCL pathology with neurodegeneration and characteristic neuronal storage
material. We have generated a Drosophila NCL model by inactivating the
conserved Drosophila cathepsin D homolog. We report here that cathepsin D
mutant flies exhibit the key features of NCLs. They show progressive
neuronal accumulation of autofluorescent storage inclusions, which are
also positive for periodic acid Schiff and luxol fast blue stains.
Ultrastructurally, the storage material is composed of membrane-bound
granular electron-dense material, similar to the granular osmiophilic
deposits found in the human infantile and ovine congenital NCL forms. In
addition, cathepsin D mutant flies show modest age-dependent
neurodegeneration. Our results suggest that the metabolic pathway leading
to NCL pathology is highly conserved during evolution, and that
cathepsin D mutant flies can be used to study the pathogenesis of NCLs.

Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002 Apr;959:57-65
Pigments in aging: an overview.
  Although during the normal aging process there are numerous pigmentary
changes, the best recognized are those of melanin and lipofuscin. Melanin
may increase (e.g., age spots, senile lentigo, or melanosis coli) or
decrease (e.g., graying of hair or ocular melanin) with age, while
lipofuscin (also called age pigment) always increases with age. In fact,
the time-dependent accumulation of lipofuscin in lysosomes of postmitotic
cells and some stable cells is the most consistent and phylogenetically
constant morphologic change of aging. This pigment displays a typical
autofluorescence (Ex: approximately 440; Em: approximately 600 nm),
sudanophilia, argyrophilia, PAS positiveness, and acid fastness. Advances
on its biogenesis, composition, evolution, and lysosomal degradation have
been hampered by the persistent confusion between lipofuscin and the
large family of ceroid pigments found in a variety of pathological
conditions, as evidenced by the frequent use of the hybrid term
lipofuscin/ceroid by investigators mainly working with in vitro systems
of disputable relevance to in vivo lipofuscinogenesis. While lipofuscin
and ceroid pigments may share some of their physicochemical
properties at one moment or another in their evolutions, these pigments
have different tissue distribution, rates of accumulation, origin of
their precursors, and lectin binding affinities. Although it is widely
believed that lipofuscin is a marker of oxidative stress, and that it can
be, therefore, modified by antioxidants and prooxidants, these assumptions
are mainly based on in vitro experiments and are not generally supported
by in vivo studies. Another common misconception is the belief that
lipofuscin can be extracted from tissues by lipid solvents and measured
spectrofluorometrically. These and other disturbing problems are reviewed
and discussed in this presentation.

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Message #26095
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 01:43:16 EDT
Subject: Re: CryoNet #26077 To Donaldson.

T. Donaldson wrote:
> Even if you combine "only" 1000 neurons on a single chip, and have them
> work by time-sharing, you'll still eventually encounter simultaneous
> events on which your time-sharing brain will crash. It doesn't require
> all neurons to time-share for such a thing to happen. I didn't even think
> that you were planning to time-share your program for all neurons.
> 

Once more I am surprised that someone with a large mathematical background 
can't understand something as simple as the Shannon's theorem on digital signal 
conversion. All the time sharing computation is done in one millisecond, in 
that time all neurons are "frozen", because their shortest signal is in the two 
milisecond range. The best thing to close on that subject would be that you 
look at an elementary textbook on the subject.

> As for producing growth of neurons by means of software, your supposed
> idea fails completely. <...>
> Would you mind, then, explaining exactly how your brain will have
> neurons which grow new connections, and even sometimes grow new 
> working neurons? Even if you have things set up so that a chip
> holds 1000 time-sharing neurons, growing new neurons will raise
> problems which separate neurons would not: say that it wants to connect
> to one of the neurons on a FULL chip. Then it must somehow do so
> while keeping the connections of all 999 other neurons unchanged and
> with the neuron it wants to connect to somehow growing one more
> connection... or more if we're talking about dendrites.

You must know, if you have read my uploading messages that the shape of the 
action potential has no information content, a simple rectangular pulse does 
the job. If you have read "From Molecules to Networks", you must know that. So, 
until the presynaptic axon terminal, there is no need for a physical 
connection, broadcasting is a far better solution for an electronics device. The system 
could be modeled on Internet: The IP neuron...I'll come back on that shortly.

Yvan Bozzonetti.

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Message #26096
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:39:51 EDT
Subject: Uploading (3.ii.1) First bits.

 Uploading (3.ii.1) First bits.

There is a first attempt to define the rough needs in term of bits allocation 
inside an artificial neuron.
 
The action potential is a simple rectangular signal, it needs only one bit.
The presynaptic vesicle release needs at most 9 bits, these split into: 7 for 
one site and 2 for up to 4 sites.
The probability P must rule a seven levels system, if it has far more than 7 
levels itself,  there is a waste of information, so P must have 3 bits.
The post synaptic dendrite spine head may have up to some hundreds receptors 
of a given kind and may be 3 or 4 kind. It seems that 10024 levels would fit 
nearly all needs. That define a 10 bits signal.
The dendrite head, for a given neuron kind, may be defined by 4 receptor 
species, each with 256 possibilities, from 0 receptor to 255. This would take 8 
bits and for 4 species: 32 bits.
This give 4 billions possibilities for a spine, hardly a standardization. In 
fact, we may be unable to count the receptor number in a given spine head 
after some hours of ischemic decay. If we stardardize the number with 16 level or 
4 bits, that would say that we count the receptor number as 0 to 7 with code 
size 0000, 8 to 15 with code 0001, and so on up to between 248 and 255 
receptors in code 1111. There would be 16 bits used for the spine size or 16,000 
possibilities.
 
The next element is a dendrite section with Green's function differential 
solution. There may be from zero to 20 amplifier spines. the number and position 
matter here, this give one million of possible solution. More: One spine may 
have different gate levels from another for different signal intensity, because 
of different channels types. So we can't assume a single probability table 
for all spines. Depending on the trafic density for excitatory or inhibitory 
signals, the probability table can be shifted to another.
 
At synaptic level, 16,000 spine heads possibilities have been assumed, this 
translate here into 16,000 different probability tables.
The probability curve is defined by a number of point. Each channel block 
define one such point. There was 16 blocks at most for one channel species and 4 
species. This give 64 possibilities to adjust the probability curve. Each 
table has so 64 element.
 
At a given potential intensity, it would be useless to have a probability 
defined on more bits than the gap to the next channel number. Because the block 
here have 8 channels, this may be expressed with 3 bits. To take into account 
the Shannon's theorem on digitized signal, we may use x2 more states or 16. A 
probability would then be expressed with 4 bits and would run from 0/15 to 
15/15.
 
So we have 16,000 probabilities tables, each with 64 entries and each entry 
defined on 4 bits. The memory to hold that would need  22 bits.
 
I understand such computations are somewhat tedious. I think two lessons can 
be drawn from this:
1/ The computing requirement for uploading quality neurons is well in the 
range of present day technology.
2/ The serious thinking is no more at the philosophical level or even the 
biological data collecting, it is at the electronics implementation state of the 
model. It bite a lot!
 
Yvan Bozzonetti.

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Message #26097
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:39:52 EDT
Subject: Re: CryoNet #26084  other countries

>From John deRivaz:

> Re: Are there countries other than the USA  for long term storage ?
> 
> The answer is "no". Interest in cryonics around the world is still too
> diffuse to raise the substantial funds that would be needed. There would
> need to be many wealthy people in the same town or at least same county (not
> country) to make this possible. The UK has the most cryonicists outside of
> North America and it is nowhere near achieving this, though some have tried.
> The inflation of property prices in relation to salaries, and taxes and
> regulations on businesses, make the situation far harder now than it was
> some decades ago when the existing cryonics service providers first
> appeared. [In the UK at least, it used to be possible to purchase a
> residence for three years average salary. Now it is seven. Similar inflation
> relates to business premises. Relating costs to salaries is a much better
> guide than looking at money figures.]
> 

What is the minimum surface for a storrage facility?
I think a solution would be to build cryostats and do the training in France 
where there is a facility ready to use and limit the UK to a simple garage 
sized site. When there will be more money, a larger facility could be built. 
Nobody has a 50 sq. meter backyard surface for a prefabricated shelter?

Yvan Bozzonetti.

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