Subject: [AthofSV] Help with LDS conversion attempts

From: "K. A. Brauch" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:32:10 -0800

The Mormons are trying to convert my 20 year old daughter. She has a
learning/speech and language disability and doesn't comprehend too much of
what she reads. Friends have introduced her to two missionaries who are
doing a full court press to convert her. We have tried hard not to overtly
forbid her from considering Mormonism and feel that if she wants to consider
religion she should do so without pressure from any one church and should
consider all faiths, including Buddhism and Hinduism. This is something she
can't do alone and she doesn't know how to critically review what she is
being told. 
 
Do any of you have any experience with LDS and do you have any clear
questions that we can ask that will show us where the cracks are "so to
speak"? I have heard very little good about the Mormon church and find most
of their claims to be so blatantly silly as to not merit rebuttal but her
case is different. 
 
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. 
 
Klaus Brauch
 
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From: "oldsalvus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:38:47 -0800

Dear Klaus,

First I must say that I am persuaded that since any and all religions seem
to have no qualms about postulating their beliefs with open intent to
convert uninformed people, non-religious people must begin to defend against
their efforts forcefully.

Now directly answering your question, there is a passage in Mormon belief
literature which claims that there is a planet on the other side of the Sun,
which rotates in such a way that it is always hidden from sight from earth.
Mormons believe that God lives on that planet, and they will go there when
they die if they are good Mormons. If I remember correctly, the name of the
planet is something like "Kolab" or "Kolob". I have contacted a skeptic
friend of mine who is well versed in the research of this sort of thing, and
he has agreed to find book and page for me in the next few days. This
particular friend of mine used to be a teacher at a local college and he
tells of a time when he would invite people of various persuasions to speak
before his class in effort to expose these frauds for what they really are.
He chuckles when he recalls the embarrassment of the Mormon speaker when he
asked him to explain this particular belief.

As soon as I have the documentation, I will email it back to you. Don't give
up hope... Help is on the way.

Lou
  -----Original Message-----
  From: K. A. Brauch [mailto:[email-masked]]
  Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:32 PM
  To: [email-masked]
  Subject: [AthofSV] Help with LDS conversion attempts

  Klaus Brauch

  This email is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
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From: David Wilkes <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:08:12 -0800

You may have legal recourse if you are her guardian.  If so, you could 
petition the court for an injunction.  I was almost to that point with a 
rather aggressive minister in Pennsylvania who was bothering my kids.  
He backed off after I had the Sheriff talk with him.

Another action you could take is to attend several churches with her.  
This would let her have something to campare. 

The best bet would be to join the Humanists who have regular meetings 
and an outreach.  You would have to go with her for a while to steer her 
into involvement and to see the situation.  Some Unitarian fellowships 
are becoming spacey, but they are still better than letting her get 
involved with the Mormons. 

The Mormons have been liars from the beginning.  Joe Smith lied about 
the Golden Tablets, Moroni's dictation, salamanders, and a lot of other 
things.  The lies have continued through convenient revelation and 
historical revision.

If you have a chance to get a copy of the South Park Mormon episode, it 
would demonstrate how the Mormons recruit. In any event she should learn 
the Mormons are liars or misguided themselves in telling people about 
their religion. Tell her they are telling her things which are not true 
and trying to get her to work for them for free.

Spend  some time with her yourself to find out why she would need 
something like the Mormons.

I went so far on one occasion as following the missionaries areound from 
door to door with a sign proclaiming them to be liars and telling the 
people who answered the door that they were liars.

There are other methods.  Contact me directly if you need help.

David

K. A. Brauch wrote:

> learning/speech and language disability and doesn't comprehend too 
> much of what she reads. Friends have introduced her to two 
> missionaries who are doing a full court press to convert her. We have 
> tried hard not to overtly forbid her from considering Mormonism and 
> feel that if she wants to consider religion she should do so without 
> pressure from any one church and should consider all faiths, including 
> Buddhism and Hinduism. This is something she can't do alone and she 
> doesn't know how to critically review what she is being told.
>  
> questions that we can ask that will show us where the cracks are "so 
> to speak"? I have heard very little good about the Mormon church and 
> find most of their claims to be so blatantly silly as to not merit 
> rebuttal but her case is different.
>  
> contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized 
> review, use, disclosure  or distribution is prohibited. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and 
> destroy, delete and trash all copies of the original message. Thank you.
> (H)714-969-1481
> (C)714-397-8263
>
> <http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/698473747>
>
>  

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From: Wilson Afonso <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:44:58 +1100

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:38:47 -0800, oldsalvus <[email-masked]> wrote:
> [...]

Well, there's also that issue with the "magic Mormon underpants"...

-Wilson
-- 
Wilson Roberto Afonso        [email-masked]
http://www.netwhatever.com/

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From: "isaacjs22000" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:49:07 -0000

As an ex-Jehovah Witness, I might be of some help as far as
"witnessing" tactics go.  I have Mormon relatives but never learned
about them from the family.  I have a book of Mormon for dealing with
them (left over from when I was a Witness) but never actually read it.
 So I only know a little about them, but if they are doing something
specific you'd like some suggestions with, I might have some insight.
 Some of their tactics are similar to what the Witnesses use.  There
are web sites for Mormons or ex-Mormons looking to de-convert people,
though not so many as their are for JWs, but they might help.  It
seems that the Witnesses are more hated, while the Mormons are often
looked upon as being more of a joke because they are just so weird. 
As a Witness, we usually regarded them as amatures in the fielf
ministry.  :-)  But that may have changed since they'll altered their
missionary practices somewhat.  

I've always thought it would be interesting to compare notes with an
ex-Mormon turned atheist myself, but I haven't met any yet.  I have
looked up some stuff on them out of curiousity since they do
door-to-door work like Witnesses do, but I have barely scratched the
surface as of yet.

>From my own experience with Witnesses and budding Witnesses in
training, I would not suggest you pressure her about any of this.  I
would keep it calm and simple to avoid pushing her away.  Remember, if
she feels persecuted by you at all, even by accident, you will be
shoving her right into their laps.  That could turn into a classic
case.  The family often does half the evangelist's work for them when
this happens in spite of the family's good intentions by getting
upset.  The thing in the WT Society is that the Witnesses treat every
new prospect like they're absolutely fascinating.  You show up, and
they're always SO happy you came--  

"Really?  Tell us more about yourself!  Wow, you're really smart.  So
tell me, what did you think of..."  Etc.  All that attention gets
flattering real fast, and you end up feeling really good just by going
to one of their meetings.  They really seem to like you, and you feel
so welcome that you just gotta come back for some more.  It's a subtle
psychological ploy that often works surpisingly well.  If you pressure
her, it will work twice as well because it will make them far more
appealing than you are!  Avoiding this is a major hurdle to overcome.

Instead, you might ask her to tell you about the Mormons with as much
genuine interest as you can muster.  "So, what are they like?  What do
they believe about this or that..."  She will probably sense your
disapproval at some level and be hesitant to talk much, but if you act
interested and don't object to the things she tells you, then she'll
grow comfortable in talking about it.  This is when you should try to
connect with her about this faith so she'll feel like she can come to
you for guidance.  Right now, if she is really interested in the LDS,
then THEY are the ones connecting with her on this issue.  You'll have
to find your own way to connect and it might be a bit of work.  But
religion is usually about emotion, so you have to work on both the
emotional and intellectual levels.  If you don't connect, she won't
really listen to your objections.  At least, that's been my own
experience with most Witness cases.

>From there, you can ask reasonable questions to learn more, just as
any curious person would, and ask her what she thinks of the things
she is telling you.  If she's like most prospective Witnesses, she
might feel really excited about learning all these new things, so the
ideal thing would be to make her feel like she can rub some of that
fascination off on you.  You want her coming home and anxious to talk
to you about anything "cool" she just learned.  And remember to be
patient, or she'll feel that you're just playing with her head.  If
you are just asking questions to object to them, she'll spot that real
easy.  If you succeed at being subtle and feel that you are connecting
after a time, then you could try explain to her how you feel and why
their interest in her worries you, or talk about religion in a general
way.  By this point, she'll feel that you are more so entitled to
offer an opinion because you've invested some effort of your own into
the project.  Also, we atheists have good reason to doubt religion in
general--if you have her confidence, you could try telling her more
about your doubts in all religion.

BTW, just like the Witnesses, I understand that the Mormons are
considered (by some) to be a break-off of the original group founded
by J.Smith.  The WT Society is technically a breakoff of the original
Bible Students, who were founded by C.T.Russell.  So you might be able
to instill some doubt this way.  I believe Wikipedia.com has an entry
pertaining to this, so you could go there to find out more.  There are
ex-Mormon support groups out there who might offer some insight, but
again, there are few more ex-Witness groups.  Remember also that if
their beliefs are so "out there" that they become hard to take
seriously, then it will undermine her belief in what they say.  You
could ask if it's true they believe such-and-such so she'll have to
ask them directly herself.  Then she can't just assume you made it up
or anything.

Hope some of this helps a little.  If they try anything new, let us
know.  Mabye it'll be something I've seen the Witnesses use as well.  

IsaacJ

> learning/speech and language disability and doesn't comprehend too
much of
> This email is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain

---

From: "isaacjs22000" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:53:41 -0000

They believe that Satan and Jesus were the arms of God's Throne. 
Satan was made of silver, Jesus was made of gold, so Satan got jealous
and stuff...

Clearly God has no sense of style.  How ugly would that look?  And
HEY!  Now his chair's got no arms!  This is what happens when you
instill your furniture with a sense of free will.  And because of this
stupid mistake, we get to put up with evilness and whatnot.  Thanks!

<<IsaacJ looks up and shakes his fist at the stars>>

IsaacJ

--- In [email-masked], Wilson Afonso <wafonso@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:38:47 -0800, oldsalvus <oldsalvus@c...> wrote:
> >  
> Wilson Roberto Afonso        wafonso@g...

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