Subject: CryoNet #25840 - #25854

From: CryoNet <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Mar 2005 10:00:01 -0000

CryoNet - Tue 22 Mar 2005

    #25840: for David Verbecke [Thomas Donaldson]
    #25841: for David Verbecke, further [Thomas Donaldson]
    #25842: for Coetzee [Thomas Donaldson]
    #25843: Re: CryoNet #25833 - #25839 [Chrissie de Rivaz]
    #25844: Re: [Cryonics Europe] National Geographic on cryonics [John de Rivaz]
    #25845: National Geographic on cryonics [John de Rivaz]
    #25846: The Cryonics Society [Billy H.Seidel]
    #25847: To thomas [Basie]
    #25848: A method to mass produce stem cells  [Basie]
    #25849: The World Attention to the Girl on Life Support [Shannon Vyff]
    #25850: Dying cat [Omnedon]
    #25851: Terri the Schi-ombie [Mark Plus]
    #25852: Terri the Schi- again [Basie]
    #25853: Soulless cryonauts [Mark Plus]
    #25854: : How to survive a stroke/heart attack.  Please pass on [marta sandberg]

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Message #25840
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:47:15 -0500
From: Thomas Donaldson <[email-masked]>
Subject: for David Verbecke

For David Verbecke:

Rather than list all of political and social movements in Europe 
that give Americans feel caution about cryonics there, 

As someone who is an American and has spent a fair bit of time
there, a lot of the religious stuff feels like background noise
to me. The President, as is not the case in a parliamentary 
system, cannot simply impose his views on the country, whatever
they may be. He must have a majority and sometimes even a 
2/3rds majority of Congress behind him to do anything significant
to the US at all.

I'll also add that religion has not disappeared in the US,
unlike Europe. I refer not just to conservative religion but
religion of all kinds. Although its hardly very loud, it's
easy enough to set up your own religion that one cryonicist
has done so, just to deal with the possibility of religious
opposition to cryonics.

Moreover, so far and despite lots of noise, the religious
right has not succeeded in revoking major changes. The right
of a woman to an abortion remains, for instance. As for other
religious movements, you may well see most of the Catholic
congregations in the US seceding from the Universal Catholic
Church, not because they're more conservative but because
they're a lot less conservative: they'd like to see women
as priests, for instance.

It may sound too optimistic to you, but fundamentally I don't
believe that religious or even patriotic conservatism
(I think the patriotic branch has a lot to do with the 
US response in the election and the Iraq war) will do 
anything fundamental to the US. And remember that unlike
many European countries, and unlike Australia, Americans
are very loud and showy politically. You don't get ANYONE
who takes a quiet political stance. You have to have horns
tooting and firecrackers exploding if you want to do politics.

I'm not saying that I believe in any of this, simply saying
that it happens. But I will tell you a little story of how
I first went to Australia. It was in the Vietnam War, as it
was ending. And I remember an incident at the University of
Illinois in which young national guardsmen faced young
demonstrators, and shot one of them dead. I was hardly very old
myself, with much experience of societies or politics, but
I thought then that the US was in for a civil war on the
Vietnam issue. So I thought of ways to go elsewhere.

But an interesting thing happened. It was really as if the 
young national guardsmen and the young demonstrators, and
all those who supported either side, really looked at what
they were doing with the shooting of this girl demonstrator.
Somehow things cooled down a bit. Still rough, but it 
was as if afterwards everyone had an internal barrier holding
them back from going too far.

Does this say anything about the current state of the US?
You have to decide. A trip there might be helpful, and 
even more, a trip which included visits with US religious
conservatives. Yes, that's what I said.

         Best wishes and long long life for allllllllllllllllllllll
         Best wishes and long long life for all,

               Thomas Donaldson

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Message #25841
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:09:56 -0500
From: Thomas Donaldson <[email-masked]>
Subject: for David Verbecke, further

For David Verbeck further:

Rather than let you think I believe that all is OK in the US,
I will add a bit more to my message.

Most political figures (and I believe this is true of Europe
and Belgium too) are mixtures of good and bad. We're not going
to get one that fits ALL of our desires, ever. For that matter,
we're not going to get one who is free of contradictions.

Bush and his government have made significant mistakes, but
also done significant positive things too. I voted for Bush
this time not because I thought he was the ants pants and
the answer to all our problems, but because his opponent
didn't really impress me at all. He was criticising Bush
for policies that he would follow himself once President.

And then, because I happened also to last have had my
residence in California, and believed that the Federal policy
on stem cells was both stupid and ignorant, voted for the
funding of such research by the State of California, as
put up by its governor. (This election was held at the 
same time, as is usual in the US). 

Why did I do these things? If I am anything politically right
now I am a libertarian. I like Bush's economic policies, but
not his social or religious policies. I will add, though,
that if immortalism ever became a political issue, I'd 
do my best to promote it, even if its leading light is
a socialist rather than a libertarian.

         Best wishes and long long life to all,

             Thomas Donaldson

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Message #25842
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:28:33 -0500
From: Thomas Donaldson <[email-masked]>
Subject: for Coetzee

To Coetzee:

One class of cryonics patients consists of those with Alzheimer's
or other brain diseases. Alzheimer's patients, as a classic example
of the problem they provide for cryonics, are normally considered
to be still living when their upper brains have disappeared.

Any law which makes it harder to deal with such patients is a blow
against cryonics. Just how are we to get patients with Alzheimer's
suspended soon enough if they can't be "deanimated" even by 
starvation while they remain officially alive?

You say that there are methods of dealing with the problems caused
by such a law beforehand. Please tell  us all what these methods
are.

            Best wishes and long long life to all,

               Thomas Donaldson

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Message #25843
From: "Chrissie de Rivaz" <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #25833 - #25839
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:53:06 -0000

For someone complaining about verbosity <Kitty Antonik Wakfar> might learn
about the power of precis. Afraid I gave up long before I could manage
episode two, as there was so much repetition of material previously read.
Has he/she actually made a point here? (In one sentence please).

Best Wishes,  Chrissie
*** Please acknowledge emails, as I am having reliability problems***
http://www.Rough-Clay.com for my latest book

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Message #25844
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Cryonics Europe] National Geographic on cryonics
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:49:45 -0000

with regards to

> there is no scientific evidence that a cryopreserved human will ever be
revived.

it is also true to say that no one now living, whether at the top of the
scientific, medical, legal, law enforcement or political professions can say
with absolute certainty (or even enough certainty to make correct life or
death decisions) that cryopreservation will **not** result in reanimation to
good youthful health.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0
To: [email-masked] ; [email-masked] ;
[email-masked] ; ExI chat list ;
[email-masked]
Sent: 21 March 2005 10:02
Subject: [Cryonics Europe] National Geographic on cryonics

The National Geographic magazine has a good article on cryonics.
The prospect of cheating death raises a host of philosophical, moral,
and religious questions. But let's consider only the scientific
aspects.
Even proponents of cryonics, the practice of storing entire organisms
(or at least their brains) for future revival, admit there is no
scientific evidence that a cryopreserved human will ever be revived.
No one even knows what technology would have to be developed to
reverse the preservation.
Many questions surround the cryopreservation process itself. In
cryopreservation, cells and tissues are stored at frigid, cryogenic
temperatures - where metabolism and decay are almost stopped - for
future revival at normal temperatures.
But scientists have long known that the freezing process creates ice
crystals, which destroy cells and cellular structures.
A few years ago, cryobiologists discovered a new preservation process,
called vitrification, which virtually eliminates ice-crystal
formation. Rather than freezing the tissue, vitrification suspends it
in a highly viscous glassy state. In this mode, molecules remain in a
disordered state, as in a fluid, rather than forming a crystalline
structure.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0318_050318_cryonics.html

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Message #25845
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Subject: National Geographic on cryonics
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:15:31 -0000

with regards to

> there is no
scientific evidence that a cryopreserved human will ever be revived.

it is also true to say that no one now living, whether at the top of the scientific, medical, legal, law enforcement or political professions can say with absolute certainty (or even enough certainty to make correct life or death decisions) that cryopreservation will not result in reanimation to good youthful health.

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and more
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
  To: [email-masked] ; [email-masked] ; [email-masked] ; ExI chat list ; [email-masked] 
  Sent: 21 March 2005 10:02
  Subject: [Cryonics Europe] National Geographic on cryonics

  The National Geographic magazine has a good article on cryonics.
  The prospect of cheating death raises a host of philosophical, moral,
  and religious questions. But let's consider only the scientific
  aspects.
  Even proponents of cryonics, the practice of storing entire organisms
  (or at least their brains) for future revival, admit there is no
  scientific evidence that a cryopreserved human will ever be revived.
  No one even knows what technology would have to be developed to
  reverse the preservation.
  Many questions surround the cryopreservation process itself. In
  cryopreservation, cells and tissues are stored at frigid, cryogenic
  temperatures - where metabolism and decay are almost stopped - for
  future revival at normal temperatures.
  But scientists have long known that the freezing process creates ice
  crystals, which destroy cells and cellular structures.
  A few years ago, cryobiologists discovered a new preservation process,
  called vitrification, which virtually eliminates ice-crystal
  formation. Rather than freezing the tissue, vitrification suspends it
  in a highly viscous glassy state. In this mode, molecules remain in a
  disordered state, as in a fluid, rather than forming a crystalline
  structure.
  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0318_050318_cryonics.html

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT

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    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    [email-masked]
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

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Message #25846
From: "Billy H.Seidel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Cryonics Society
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:15:30 -0800

WOW,  Kitty Antonik Wakfer.

Great stuff.  I wish I could put together the ideas and words you just did in your last post on "The Cryonics Society".  

I don't intend to imply that The Cryonics Society is at all like some of the mailings that my 80 Year old Mother did, but it sure sounds like it.  Send me your money and we will send you your personal and secret numbers to win whatever you need numbers for.  My Mother and a lot of elderly people used to and are still getting cheated out of their precious savings by such false lies and promises. My Mom would send as much as $80 a month to these various letters from all over the world asking for just $20 or $10 or whatever they could.  She would say, "Well it sounded like a good idea".  I could go on for a long time on the slick letters she used to get.  I could not get them to stop.  Finally I returned them unopened and marked "Deceased".

Kitty,  my compliments on your in-depth analysis and questions about The Cryonics Society.

Thank you

Billy H. Seidel

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Message #25847
From: "Basie" <[email-masked]>
Subject: To thomas
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:19:49 -0500

"You say that there are methods of dealing with the problems caused
by such a law beforehand. Please tell  us all what these methods
are."

A living will.

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Message #25848
From: "Basie" <[email-masked]>
Subject: A method to mass produce stem cells 
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:29:36 -0500

A method to mass produce stem cells
Thursday, March 17, 2005
A method for mass producing embryonic stem cells has been developed by Ohio 
State University researchers. This method could make it easier and cheaper 
to meet the growing demand for stem cells.
Embryonic stem cells are unspecialised cells that can grow into any of the 
body's 200 different types of cells, experts say. Traditional laboratory 
techniques used to make these stem cells are expensive and don't produce 
stem cells quickly enough to fill anticipated need. There are currently 22 
embryonic stem cells lines on the US National Institutes of Health's Human 
Embryonic Stem Cell Registry.
"We have to find a way to mass produce them because traditional cell 
culturing methods can't meet the projected high market demand for stem 
cells," Shang-Tian Yang, professor of chemical and biomolecular engineering, 
said in a prepared statement.

He and a colleague grew mouse embryonic cells in a bioreactor and were able 
to produce hundreds of millions more stem cells in 15 days than could be 
produced using current conventional laboratory methods.

This new method requires less equipment and monitoring and could reduce stem 
cell production costs by at least 80 percent, Yang said.

The research was presented this week at the national meeting of the American 
Chemical Society in San Diego. - (HealthDayNews)

http://www.health24.com/news/Genetics/1-916,31224.asp 

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Message #25849
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:03:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon Vyff <[email-masked]>
Subject: The World Attention to the Girl on Life Support

I have followed this story a bit, it seems that the
parents would be interested in Cryonics. 

They have always held out for some treatment.

I for one would contribute some to help her be
suspended if the cryonics community would offer.

It could be a good media for Alcor, or CI.

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Message #25850
From: "Omnedon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Dying cat
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:44:30 -0600

We may have to unexpectedly put one of our beloved cats 'to sleep' as early
as tomorrow.  We do not have the resources to have her suspended.  If some
caring and generous individual, or individuals want to quickly help out,
email me directly.

If this request is somehow inappropriate, forgive me.  I am not very
rational at the moment.

Long life to all who cherish it,
[email-masked]
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005

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Message #25851
From: "Mark Plus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Terri the Schi-ombie
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:58:20 -0800

I have to wonder whether l'affaire Schiavo invokes so much anxiety in 
religionists because they don't want to face the fact that unconscious 
neurological processes can generate our elementary social behavior even when 
the consciousness engine in the brain is trashed. Terri cries, laughs, 
grimaces and so forth, much like an unimpaired human   but these behaviors 
are all happening automatically; they don't require the organism to maintain 
the delusion of a "soul" behind its eyes.

In other words, Terri's example challenges the common belief that equates a 
seemingly responsive human life with the possession of a supernatural 
consciousness to generate it. Terri is too much like a "soulless" monster 
from a horror story for religionists' comfort, so they are desperately 
trying to project a humanoid consciousness onto her for their benefit, not 
for hers.

Manage your risk, not your terror.
Mark Plus

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Message #25852
From: "Basie" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Terri the Schi- again
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:37:11 -0500

You are talking a lot of nonsense. No MRI was taken of her brain. Until that 
is done the doctors can only speculate. Note the law Congress passed may be 
used in the future to help suspended patients because at some point some 
patients will go through the vegetative stage.

Basie 

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Message #25853
From: "Mark Plus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Soulless cryonauts
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:26:29 -0800

I might add that I suspect a discussion of the Schiavo case among 
cryonicists will activate terror-management confabulations. In the back of 
our minds we fear that even with the best cryosuspension possible, future 
medicine won't be able to recover our memories and personalities in 
sufficient enough detail to provide a continuous sense of personal identiy. 
At best we'd just wind up with artificial minds overlaying Schiavo-like 
substrates, like the Amerindian character reconstructed from a mummified 
brain in one of Thomas Donaldson's stories.

Manage your risk, not your terror.
Mark Plus

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Message #25854
From: "marta sandberg" <[email-masked]>
Subject: : How to survive a stroke/heart attack.  Please pass on
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:28:03 +0800

These three simple questions can be a life saver.  Please read this and then 
pass it on to your friends.

IS IT A STROKE?

Sometimes symptoms of a stroke are difficult to identify. Unfortunately, the 
lack of awareness spells disaster for the stroke victim.   A stroke victim 
may suffer brain damage when people nearby fail to  recognize the symptoms 
of a stroke. Now doctors say any bystander can  recognize a stroke by asking 
three simple questions:

Ask the individual to smile.

Ask him or her to raise both arms.

Ask the person to speak a simple sentence.

If he or she has trouble with any of these tasks, call 9-1-1 immediately, 
And describe the symptoms to the dispatcher.

After discovering that a group of non-medical volunteers could identify 
facial weakness, arm weakness and speech problems, researchers urged the  
general public to learn the three questions.  They presented their 
conclusions at the American Stroke Association's annual meeting last 
February. Widespread use of this test could result in  prompt diagnosis and 
treatment of the stroke and prevent brain damage.

IS IT A HEART ATTACK?

A cardiologist says if everyone who gets this e-mail sends it to 10people,  
you can bet that at least one life will be saved.  Read this... It could 
save your life!!

Let's say it's 6.15 P.M. and you're driving home (alone of course), after  
an unusually hard day on the job. You're really tired, upset, and  
frustrated..  Suddenly you start experiencing severe pain in your chest that 
starts to  radiate out into your arm and up into your jaw. You are only 
about five  miles from the hospital nearest your home.

Unfortunately you don't know if you'll be able to make it that far. You  
have been trained in CPR, but the guy that taught the course did not tell  
you how to perform it on yourself.

HOW TO SURVIVE A HEART ATTACK WHEN ALONE

Since many people are alone when they suffer a heart attack, without help,  
the person whose heart is beating improperly and who begins to feel faint,  
has only about 10 seconds left before losing consciousness .

*****However, these victims can help themselves by coughing repeatedly and  
very vigorously.

*****A deep breath should be taken before each cough, and the cough must  be 
deep and prolonged, as when producing sputum from deep inside the chest.

*****A breath and a cough must be repeated about every two seconds without 
let-up until help arrives, or until the heart is felt to be beating normally 
again

*****  Deep breaths get oxygen into the lungs and coughing movements squeeze 
the heart and keep the blood circulating. The squeezing pressure of the 
heart  also helps it regain normal rhythm. In this way, heart attack victims 
can  get to a hospital.

Tell as many people as possible about this. It could save their lives!!

_________________________________________________________________
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