Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:27:19 -0400

Jeff / listers

You've asked the same questions I asked myself when I was considering what kind of backstay adjuster to invest in.  You're a braver newbie than I.... I'm a bit inhibited when it comes to asking such obvious questions on the list. I do 'listen' alot..... and do a lot of my own research.  Here's what I'm going to do with SeaBatical.  It seems it's really the best of both of the worlds that Baynard described so eloquently. It uses the dual back stays and has the 'pincher' approach ... but the purchase / rigging to adjust the tension is a bit unique.  There's a block on both sides of the transom that can be used for adjustment.  Here's how the guy with a C&C 25 describes it with photos:

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/backstay/backstay.htm

He ain't gonna lose his backstay... even if one of the shrouds? breaks/comes lose/etc. and he can control the adjustment from either side of the boat.  Looked like a winner to me!

Fair winds,
Dan Schafer
"SeaBatical"
Traverse City, MI
1983 swing keel

"Jeff  Elsbecker" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>Thanks Bayard and Terry.
>The mechanical advantage / economy of tackle aspect makes sense.
>
>I still feel like there's a 'weather rock' aspect of this I'm not 
>understanding.
>Looking at images of the single-wire-with-blocks it seems if the line isn't 
>properly cleated you end up with NO backstay tension at all.  My 
>inexperience is at work here.  Will the aft lower shrouds keep the mast up? 
>Or is there a stop knot to prevent this?  If the tensioner for the 
>split-backstay goes MIA, it seems there is still some tension.
>What gives?  (If you will forgive the pun.)
>
>Related:  What is considered the average life time of standing rigging under 
>normal use?
>
>
>Looking forward to further enlightenment,
>Jeff
>"Turning Point"  4462
>N. Kingstown, RI
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: [email-masked]
>To: [email-masked]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?
>
>
>Jeff:
>
>By two opinions for a backstay adjuster, I assume you mean either the type
>that adjusts by squeezing two wires together by a couple of sheaves or the
>more direct type that adjusts with a single wire attached to some blocks.
>
>I have the later of these two types, which is also the style that Catalina
>Direct sells.
>
>My opinion is that type that adjusts with the single wire with blocks is
>better than the style that adjusts by squeezing two wires.
>
>In either case, you will need employ as much mechanical advantage as
>practical which means triple blocks.
>
>In squeezing two wires with a triple block set up, your mechanical advantage
>is limited to six to one.  However, with a doubler, one moves this up to
>twelve to one.  Nevertheless, in adding that doubler, the logic of the style
>that adjusts with a single wire, which is itself a doubler, becomes evident.
>So skip the squeezing part and just use the doubler and the blocks as the
>two attachment points for the backstay adjuster.  In a certain fashion, one
>substitutes a wire block at the end of the backstay for the sheaves that
>squeeze the two wires.
>
>A disadvantage in using the style that is a single doubling wire attached to
>blocks is that the doubling wire takes a sharp turn around the block at the
>end of the backstay.  As this turn is more than 90 degrees, individual
>strands of the wire may break and the wire will start to unravel.  As one
>can see this easily, the solution is to carry a spare wire that runs from a
>chain plate or eye, through a block at the end of the backstay, and then
>attaches to a triple block.
>
>Nevertheless, one can replace wire with modern high tech lines, Techora and
>Dyneema blends and Vectran as examples, in this application.  This high tech
>line will probably outlast wire in this application.  A core to core splice
>would be excellent here, however, that particular splice can be difficult to
>make.  It is possible the standard core to cover splice will suffice.
>
>I hope this is helpful.
>
>Bayard Gross
>C-22 #9911
>Baby Blue
>Greenwich, CT
>
>
>
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---

From: "Ken G. Brown\(w\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:10:44 -0600

I decided to go with the one that Catalina Direct sells, Product #: D110,
mainly because I don't know enough yet to design my own system, the previous
owner suggested it to make stepping the mast much easier and I saw one on
another C22. I have yet to install it.

I have also purchased a Loos PT tension gauge from Pride Marine 
http://www.pridemarine.com/Loos%20Tension%20Gauges.htm so that I can have
some idea of the correct tension for the backstay, at least the first time
or two.

   Ken
   --
   Ken G. Brown, Leduc, ALberta, Canada
   1988 C22 Swing Keel #14764

---

From: "Jeff Elsbecker" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:02:16 -0400

Dick, your Pet Rock was most helpful.  I've got the NSA manual on CD so I'll
have to check it out.  (When all else fails, read the instructions.  Duh.)
The cotton cloth technique for catching wire splinters is great.

Dan, that C&C setup is really something.  It helps to see an arrangement
like that to better understand the dynamics involved.  I'd like to see how
it looks when you put it on "SeaBatical".

Ken, the voice of reason.  Too often I get off on a tangent of doing it
myself an over-engineering.  Fun, but I could be sailing.  The CD option
needs looking at.

Terry, thanks for the breathing room to let me think I may be okay for
another season.  I'm the third owner of my boat.  The gentleman who had her
before is a great guy, but said he had never used the genoa or storm jib.
The new spreader mounts were already installed (and the keel pin brackets
are in good shape) so I'm thinking the wires might, just maybe, have been
replaced.

Chip, I like the notion of replacing the rigging in stages, stays & shrouds.
More specifically, my wallet likes it.  I had a friend who painted just one
side of his house every year.

Thanks for all the input.  This will probably be a 'next season' project for
me but  I feel I have enough info now to let it mull.  There is a great
marine consignment store nearby so if I see a good buy on one of the
components I can squirrel it away.

I came across this site a month ago and found it helpful.
http://www.dixielandmarine.com/yachts/DLrigprob.html  A marine surveyor
writing on rigging, with good pictures.  Actually, as I read it again I
realize he addresses rig life.  Also, some opinions on swaged vs. mechanical
fittings.
This has some info as well:
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=jkrets0046

Cheers,
Jeff
"Turning Point"  4462
N. Kingstown, RI