Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?

From: "Jeff Elsbecker" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:24:01 -0400

Thanks Bayard and Terry.
The mechanical advantage / economy of tackle aspect makes sense.

I still feel like there's a 'weather rock' aspect of this I'm not 
understanding.
Looking at images of the single-wire-with-blocks it seems if the line isn't 
properly cleated you end up with NO backstay tension at all.  My 
inexperience is at work here.  Will the aft lower shrouds keep the mast up? 
Or is there a stop knot to prevent this?  If the tensioner for the 
split-backstay goes MIA, it seems there is still some tension.
What gives?  (If you will forgive the pun.)

Related:  What is considered the average life time of standing rigging under 
normal use?

Looking forward to further enlightenment,
Jeff
"Turning Point"  4462
N. Kingstown, RI

----- Original Message ----- 
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?

Jeff:

By two opinions for a backstay adjuster, I assume you mean either the type
that adjusts by squeezing two wires together by a couple of sheaves or the
more direct type that adjusts with a single wire attached to some blocks.

I have the later of these two types, which is also the style that Catalina
Direct sells.

My opinion is that type that adjusts with the single wire with blocks is
better than the style that adjusts by squeezing two wires.

In either case, you will need employ as much mechanical advantage as
practical which means triple blocks.

In squeezing two wires with a triple block set up, your mechanical advantage
is limited to six to one.  However, with a doubler, one moves this up to
twelve to one.  Nevertheless, in adding that doubler, the logic of the style
that adjusts with a single wire, which is itself a doubler, becomes evident.
So skip the squeezing part and just use the doubler and the blocks as the
two attachment points for the backstay adjuster.  In a certain fashion, one
substitutes a wire block at the end of the backstay for the sheaves that
squeeze the two wires.

A disadvantage in using the style that is a single doubling wire attached to
blocks is that the doubling wire takes a sharp turn around the block at the
end of the backstay.  As this turn is more than 90 degrees, individual
strands of the wire may break and the wire will start to unravel.  As one
can see this easily, the solution is to carry a spare wire that runs from a
chain plate or eye, through a block at the end of the backstay, and then
attaches to a triple block.

Nevertheless, one can replace wire with modern high tech lines, Techora and
Dyneema blends and Vectran as examples, in this application.  This high tech
line will probably outlast wire in this application.  A core to core splice
would be excellent here, however, that particular splice can be difficult to
make.  It is possible the standard core to cover splice will suffice.

I hope this is helpful.

Bayard Gross
C-22 #9911
Baby Blue
Greenwich, CT

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From: "Dick King" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:16:01 -0400

Hi Jeff - I had a conversation with my pet rock about the backstay issue and 
here is what came from it.  There is a piece of cable (or high tech line) 
that runs from the transom eyebolt to just past the sheave that is attached 
to the lower end of the backstay (the backstay is cut off so that the sheave 
is just above the end of the boom.)  On Jagged Edge the 1/8 "SS 7x19 cable 
has a eye (with thimble) nicro pressed on both ends.

If the tackle that is used to tension the wire were to break or come 
unreaved, the upper end of the above cable would come up short against the 
sheave shackled to the end of the back stay.  While there would be some 
slack in the backstay, there is still a back stay to prevent the top of the 
mast from falling forward.

You are correct is saying the mast (at least the center of the mast) would 
be held in place by the lower shrouds.

The nice thing about the block and tackle backstay adjuster, is that you 
have more control of the backstay tension (and a wider range as well) with 
less effort than the "triangle squeeze" version.  In addition, the block and 
tackle remains loose while you are raising the mast.  The "squeeze" model 
tends due to gravity to stay in the down or "squeezed" position as you are 
trying to raise the mast.  You have to remember to tie a piece of line 
between the O ring and the triangle plate to hold it in the up or released 
position.

In short don't screw with the "squeezer".

There is an article in the Catalina 22 Tech Manual on both systems.  See 
pages 4-15 and 4-16.

How did my pet rock do?

Dick King
Melbourne, FL
7976 Jagged Edge
A bad day sailing beats almost anything worth doing.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Elsbecker" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?

| Thanks Bayard and Terry.
| The mechanical advantage / economy of tackle aspect makes sense.
|
| I still feel like there's a 'weather rock' aspect of this I'm not
| understanding.
| Looking at images of the single-wire-with-blocks it seems if the line 
isn't
| properly cleated you end up with NO backstay tension at all.  My
| inexperience is at work here.  Will the aft lower shrouds keep the mast 
up?
| Or is there a stop knot to prevent this?  If the tensioner for the
| split-backstay goes MIA, it seems there is still some tension.
| What gives?  (If you will forgive the pun.)
|
| Related:  What is considered the average life time of standing rigging 
under
| normal use?
|
|
| Looking forward to further enlightenment,
| Jeff
| "Turning Point"  4462
| N. Kingstown, RI
|
|
|
|
|
| ----- Original Message ----- 
| From: [email-masked]
| To: [email-masked]
| Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:32 PM
| Subject: Re: [Catalina22] ? adjustable backstay options ?
|
|
| Jeff:
|
| By two opinions for a backstay adjuster, I assume you mean either the type
| that adjusts by squeezing two wires together by a couple of sheaves or the
| more direct type that adjusts with a single wire attached to some blocks.
|
| I have the later of these two types, which is also the style that Catalina
| Direct sells.
|
| My opinion is that type that adjusts with the single wire with blocks is
| better than the style that adjusts by squeezing two wires.
|
| In either case, you will need employ as much mechanical advantage as
| practical which means triple blocks.
|
| In squeezing two wires with a triple block set up, your mechanical 
advantage
| is limited to six to one.  However, with a doubler, one moves this up to
| twelve to one.  Nevertheless, in adding that doubler, the logic of the 
style
| that adjusts with a single wire, which is itself a doubler, becomes 
evident.
| So skip the squeezing part and just use the doubler and the blocks as the
| two attachment points for the backstay adjuster.  In a certain fashion, 
one
| substitutes a wire block at the end of the backstay for the sheaves that
| squeeze the two wires.
|
| A disadvantage in using the style that is a single doubling wire attached 
to
| blocks is that the doubling wire takes a sharp turn around the block at 
the
| end of the backstay.  As this turn is more than 90 degrees, individual
| strands of the wire may break and the wire will start to unravel.  As one
| can see this easily, the solution is to carry a spare wire that runs from 
a
| chain plate or eye, through a block at the end of the backstay, and then
| attaches to a triple block.
|
| Nevertheless, one can replace wire with modern high tech lines, Techora 
and
| Dyneema blends and Vectran as examples, in this application.  This high 
tech
| line will probably outlast wire in this application.  A core to core 
splice
| would be excellent here, however, that particular splice can be difficult 
to
| make.  It is possible the standard core to cover splice will suffice.
|
| I hope this is helpful.
|
| Bayard Gross
| C-22 #9911
| Baby Blue
| Greenwich, CT
|
|
|
| __________ NOD32 1.1079 (20050426) Information __________
|
| This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
| http://www.nod32.com
|
|
|
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| For information on unsubscribing or contacting the list owner, go to:
| www.chipford.com/list_instructs.htm
|

---

From: "Dick King" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:28:46 -0400

Hello again Jeff - I forgot about the last part of your message.  I have 
lost a mast overboard due to an upper shroud failure.  There are several 
theories about what happened, which I won't bore you with.

In various resulting conversations, I came to the conclusion that five years 
was a good number to use.  Everybody has their own.  I am sure there are 
twenty or thirty year old boats that are still using the original wires.  I 
race my boat and don't want to take any chances.  Crew liability and cost of 
rig and sails play an important part of my replacement schedule. A set of 
new wires every five years or so, is really cheap insurance.  If you inspect 
your wires carefully using a cotton rag to find any broken strands, replace 
only ones with broken strands.  Be sure to examine the condition of your 
nicro press fittings and your turnbuckles.  These can be the weak point in 
your rigging.  Bottom line is inspect and use common sense.

Dick King
Melbourne, FL
7976 Jagged Edge

---

From: Chris Hallinan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:58:09 -0400

Dick & all,

I replaced my backstay last fall, and intend to replace the rest
this spring.  I used West Marine rigging to build my backstay.

I had spec'd 2 nicro press fittings at each end.  They called me
after reviewing the spec and talked me out of 2 NPs, to use only
one per end instead of the 2 that were on the originals.  They
said the nicro press was a weak link, and that using two was no
more strong or safe than using one.

I'd like to hear yours and any other input on this subject.  One
or 2 nicropress fittings per crimped end?

Thanks,

Chris

> A bad day sailing beats almost anything worth doing.
<snip>

-- 

Chris Hallinan
'81 C22 #10243 "Wings High"
Sutton, MA
----------------------------------