Subject: RE: [AthofSV] Re: Ingrid's Outrage

From: "Mark W. Thomas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 07:43:37 -0700

godless friends,

Children understand make-believe, and are usually quite good at it.  They
would likely understand if you simply told them that some people have one
kind of invisible make-believe super powerful friend in the sky, others have
different invisible make-believe super powerful friends in the sky, and each
person believes that all the other invisible make-believe friends in the sky
don't exist -- but theirs does.  It may seem a bit silly, but they really
believe it and even think that their invisible make-believe friend in the
sky actually talks to them in their heads.  So, when you're at [believer's /
Grandma's] house, it's polite to play along if they want to talk to their
invisible make-believe super powerful friend in the sky.

This can help innoculate the kids, by giving them a little bit of religion
in a way that they can understand.

caveat: I don't have any kids, but I've read that this has worked for
others.

 - Mark

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
[email-masked]
  Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:43 AM
  To: [email-masked]
  Subject: [AthofSV] Re: Ingrid's Outrage

   Hi, just a thought...  I think since it's their house they really can do
and think whatever the heck they want...  I don't think that as polite as
most people are, they are unwilling to change their habits "truly" to
accomodate their guests, specially since prayer is such an important ritual
to evangelicals, mormons, and the like.  I understand that it's frustrating
having kids and trying to not expose them to stupidity.. but they will have
plenty of opportunities when they are older, so why not give them some
practice.  People believe and do different things... and with all due
respect, although I understand your position and feel for you - I've been in
similar and uncomfortable situations myself - to lose sleep over what
someone does in their home seems a bit overprotective.  I think if you
talked about atheism or free thought in your home and some crazy christian
relative had a fit, you would think it kind of funny.

  And yes, children "making nice" around extended family or strangers is not
so bad at all.. you should take comfort in the thought that they are not so
ill mannered as many children/teens seem to be nowadays.  And though it's
important to know when to speak up, be yourself, be assertive, etc., I think
there is also a benefit in learning when to just shut up.  Your children
probably pick up worse things from TV.  Seeing 5 minutes of CNN's "headline
news" when it's really just Nancy Grace waxing poetic about Lindsay Lohan,
or Paris Hilton, will rot their brain more.  There is also a chance that
being very obsessive about keeping them from religion will just make them
want to research it when they are older.  I hope not, but there is always a
chance.. no matter how close, children will eventually rebel, even if just a
little bit.

  Just my two cents - no offense meant and I hope none taken.

  Dasia

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ingrid Tarien <[email-masked]>
  To: [email-masked]
  Sent: Thu, 31 May 2007 9:55 am
  Subject: [AthofSV] Re: Ingrid's Outrage

  Monica - I heard another clever one from some friends (our atheist friends
whose 3 kids are best friends with our 3). The father is Turkish and the
mother is Italian and they're a really cool, independent thinking family.

  Anyway, they had someone over for dinner, I think for a work-related thing
(vs. a personal friend). When they sat down, the guest asked "Who is going
to say grace?"

  To that, Altan quickly replied "Grace." "Let's eat..." and moved on to
eating without giving anyone a chance to say anything more.

  I love it!!! Leadership!!!

  It is really difficult when you are outnumbered and on someone else's
turf. The only solution to that is to not go, but obviously that does not
work at all if your granddaughter is there and it is her family and related
people.

  I "solved the problem" yesterday by making it clear that we simply will
not bring the kids over there anymore (again, grandma is actually an
atheist, but she supports their behavior and is basically a jellyfish. By
that I mean, she doesn't believe any of it herself, and she has made that
clear, but she not only allows them to say prayer (nothing she can do about
that anyway), she joins in and postures like they do. I think that last part
isn't necessary if you have any principles!!

  What the high crime was was that my youngest two (12 & 13) were over there
alone with them, and she did that WITH them, allowing them to be involved.
My stand on all this was exceedingly clear (and I put it in writing -
clearly - and sent it to both her and her granddaughter previously (the
granddaughter is the one who is Mormon).

  I had an absolute hissy fit. I was up until 1:30 or 2 AM writing on this
matter for two days (resulting in a number of very TIRED days).

  It is difficult to talk to these people because, unless you are perfect in
your presentation, they find inconsistencies and contradictions. I'm not
faced with religion in my life, so I'm not exactly expertly prepared (and I
thought my clear prose that was handed to them would be clear enough!). What
actually happened was they ended up taking one phrase (not even a sentence)
out of that prose in isolation (when I was explaining that, at the very
least, an option would be to "ask the children"). That was just a passing
remark, immediately followed by - Do I really mean that? No.... (and I went
on to explain what I do not want). BUT - the phrase stuck - because I guess
that is what they wanted to remember. I was writing as I was thinking things
through essentially.

  Yesterday I spewed and spit about how could she have gone through college
and done analysis of English literature if she could not draw together the
message and the theme of the whole, blah, blah.

  Children are not usually assertive and aren't expert at or driven to rebel
rousing, being much more likely to "make nice" and go along with what they
are covertly pressured to do. Talk about outrage!! I went bonkers. I drove
over there at 70 mph w/ steam blowing out of my ears and the first things
out of my mouth were "This is INexcusable. I am really disappointed in both
of you." Then it got much worse...

  I had to write them later to make sure that they actually saw in writing
what my feelings were (and I was more articiulate when I wasn't trying to
strangle them at the same time that I was trying to say 16 sentences at
exactly one time).

  I tend to see many religionists as somehow incredibly selfish and
self-focused. I don't know if that is different than other people, but it
appears to be. Me, myself, and I - and MY god (furthermore a god who created
them in HIS image). That seems pretty self absorbed...

  Grandma is reading "The God Delusion" actually right now, and she does
have that in her house in clear view. She also had "Letter to a Christian
Nation" in the house, and I'm sure the granddaughter and her husband
(they're living there for a year from Utah while he becomes a commercial
pilot) see this and just take it in stride. So - its a mixture. BUT... you
don't mess with my kids or their heads, and you don't start some
"justification" verbage with me when the message has been clearly sent
already. ...

  It is very, very difficult to see these things coming, no matter how well
prepared you may think you are. Something seems to go wrong, get twisted, or
some other violation occurs (and then you get looks - in FRONT of the
children - like what is wrong exactly?). And then there is dissonance, and
spitting and fuming, and trying to explain yourself YET again - and by the
end of it you lost about a year off your life. It is much easier to simply
draw the hard line and stay away. The problem with that is that it requires
hypervigilance because it isn't just me who is involved.

  Ingrid

  ==================
   Boy, I admire your guts. Got in grandma's face. I am so impressed and
wish I
   could do the same but just don't have the courage to stand up to
relatives.
   Last thanksgiving, at my daughter's in-laws, the 7 year old girl was
coaxed
   into saying a prayer which was mouthed by almost all the family around
the
   table except the 7 year old who clammed up and me, who ignored the whole
thing.
   Just could not make a scene at someone else's home and so outnumbered it
was
   fruitless. I was the only atheist there. They know it but don't respect
it.
   If something like that were to happen at my house i could stop it and
have,
   but when I'm the guest what could I do?
   Yesterday a client took me out to lunch. She is a lovely woman who is
   completely absorbed into her religion. Every other word is "god's will,
by the
   grace of god, blah blah blah" and I just ignore it or try to change the
subject.
   When she asked my permission to say grace before starting to eat, I
waited
   til she was done and then told her the anecdote about the little boy who
when
   asked if they pray before eating at his house says no, we don't have to.
My
   mom is a GOOD cook....
  (Monica)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading
spam and email virus protection.