Subject: RE: [Catalina-22] [LIST] -- A Proposal for the Future

From: "Pete Skalski" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:42:25 -0500

Chip, As with many others, I fully suppport the list and really
appreciate your work. A voluntary contribution is in the mail, and I look
forward to being added to your hopefully growing list of sponsors.
Besides having the luxury of being able to share knowledge and experience
with fellow owners of our fine little boat, I see this list as a way of
engendering friendship and comaraderie. It is indeed unfortunate that in
this cyber world there exists those who are bent on ransacking or
pirating websites with spam and unwanted junk mail, thus justifying the
need to "vet" those who look to the list for information and advice.
Having been a C22 sailor for about 10 years, I initially joined the C22
NSA crowd and participated on the list as a paying member. That lasted
for about 5 years. Due to personal reasons, my focus was more on work,
etc....so Liberty Pass was drydocked for a while. Then I came about and
saw the light again - setting my sites on getting back out there. Not
sure if the C22 NSA is still passing out the neat little varying colored
stickers, membership cards signifying annual membership renewal, and
Mainbrace subscription -- which are all nice -- but the real value is
with the knowledge and experience transfer that the list provides. From
my perspective, your list is "the list" when it comes to our C22, and I
see that the NSA ackowledges that fact as a listed sponsor. What I am
saying is that if you decide to charge for the list service, I will be
one of your supporters. Others may not feel the same, but this list is
more valuable to me than stickers, cards, and a magazine subscription.
I'll shut up now with a hearty Thank-You, and look forward to a
continuing dialogue and exchange of ideas with other owners out there.
Pete11212 82 SKLiberty Pass
Buckeye Lake, OH

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Chip Ford"
  To: [email-masked]
  Subject: RE: [Catalina-22] [LIST] -- A Proposal for the Future
  Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 10:22:35 -0400

I'm having a hard time this morning focusing on "my job" while this
problem -- and all the great suggestions! -- keep running around in my
head.  It's a perfect day out there (sunny, 68°, wind calm, humidity at
78% --arrgh, I should be out there working on "Chip Ahoy"!) and I'm
supposed to be revamping and updating our organization's website as
promised before the next fund-raising letter hits next week.  But my
mind's on this . . . I can't help it. I think over the next few days I'm
going to try setting-up a realistic prototype of what a new applicant can
expect.  This will be hard to do -- using the intro on the Chip Ahoy
website -- as then they'll possibly think it's website-based.  I'll be
giving it subconscious thought through the day, days.  But it's an
excellent suggestion, if I can conjure up a means of making it realistic.
I love this list -- there are so many good minds among us.  I just knew
if I tossed out my concerns, good solutions would return. I don't think a
token "non-refundable application fee" will chase off many who really
want to join -- only those who just want to see what
something-for-nothing provides, then opt-out quickly. Real security vs.
convenience on my end is the challenge to be met. And if they decide to
NOT join -- so what?  Nothing lost.  It's not like I'm making money off
circulation or advertisers or anything, you know.  Until now, it's been
free for new applicants; too much wasted time from me, and; money to keep
it going from List Sponsors when they freely choose to contribute. I'm
still thinking, but like this "samples" idea.  Today's
one-day-in-the-life-of list traffic might be perfect  . . . ! Keep it
coming. Chip Ford, List Owner / Administrator
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 Swing Keel "Chip Ahoy" #3282
CTY032820374
Chip Ahoy website:  www.chipford.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Jim McGee
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:19 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [LIST] -- A Proposal for the Future

Chip,
Having run an online photography magazine for several years I can
understand just how much of your time this takes up, which is why I
didn't hesitate to become a list contributor (I think we all should).
Frankly as a boat shopping lurker I've learned a ton here since joining
in November.

But based on my own experiences, I think there might be a better way
than charging a subscription fee.

The main reasons people would opt out so soon would be that the list
wasn't what they expected and/or they got a flood of emails during a
time when the list was busy. Here's a way to address both.

Either you or a list volunteer put together a "sample" of list traffic
in a PDF similar to "Dick King's Gems of Wisdom". This PDF would be
sanitized so that no one's email address appears. It would give
prospective list members an idea of the kinds of messages and
information they'll see so they'll have an idea of what they'll be
getting before they join. This PDF could be available right next to the
button they click to subscribe.

When someone signs up I would make the first line in the welcome email
"Dealing with List Messages", and describe how to set up a folder or
sub-folder and an email filter so that all incoming list messages are
diverted into their own folder. That way you can read them at your
leisure without clogging up your inbox. This sounds like a simple thing
to those of us who're experienced users - but it's far from obvious to a
novice user. We often forget that for many folks their primary
Internet/Email experience has been in a work environment where
everything is set up for them.

Charging a nominal fee, even a dollar, will doom this list to a slow
death as surely as I will never be mistaken for Brad Pitt. Our online
photo magazine had a quarter million subscribers. Each month over 50,000
of them downloaded the huge PDF file for the full issue which was
normally 225 pages long. Our readership was engaged and passionate,
averaging over *600 emails per day* spread among our editors. When ad
rates plummeted after 9-11 we talked it over and decided that we would
keep the basic subscription free, but charge a nominal fee for some
non-basic services. We asked readers what they thought was a fair rate
for the PDFs. The response was about a dollar a month or a $12 annual
subscription paid through PayPal. I expected to be deluged with
subscribers. In the first three months we had less than 100. When we
looked at the numbers after a year we had done far better than the
average for Internet sites but it wasn't enough to offset the loss in
advertising. Eventually we shut down.

There are a lot of reasons thrown around by experts but the bottom line
is people are either afraid or unwilling to pay for online content. This
list is a living breathing thing. People come and people go. Add an up
front fee and people will stop coming.

I think that by addressing the "what is this about" and "how do I handle
the volume of mail" questions you can really lessen the impact on your
time. Also why not do the pre-screening by email and only follow up with
a phone call if there's something that makes you suspicious? That alone
could save a lot of time.

Sorry for the long post. I hope to be hanging around here for a long
time to come, and I hope that those who've been here for a long time
don't feel as though I'm overstepping my bounds.

My two cents,
Jim McGee
C22 (coming soon)
Maple Shade, NJ

"It's hard to make things idiot proof when idiots are so creative"
~ old saying among engineers

---

From: "Chip Ford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:30:18 -0400

Glenn, thanks for your comments.  You've made it clear where you're coming
from.  I've made it clear that I'd like to see this list continue as well as
it has.  So I ponder.
 
Again I ask, so what if new applicants are discouraged by a nominal/minimal
"non-refundable application fee"?  Do you believe that will put the brakes
on hard for any new applicant -- that none will get past five or ten bucks,
or even one buck?  If it does, then what does that say about them -- not me
or us?
 
Remember American Express's pitch, it may still be using it:  "Membership
Has Its Privileges"?  There's something to be said about value, some
marketing research has shown.
 
So let's say that of the 538 that've subscribed since this discussion group
was launched, of who 260 are current subscribers, even eliminating the 134
or so who wasted my time out of those 538 -- we'd still have 260 subscribers
if the policy changes proactively.
 
I've read somewhere that the optimal list size is about 250.  (I thought I'd
find it on Kat Nagel's " <http://chipford.com/list/list_life.htm> The
Natural Life Cycle of Mailing Lists," but it wasn't there that I came across
it.)
 
If we cut applicants even in half, do you believe this will damage the
ongoing list of 260 and its success?
 
Actually for the most part, very few of us actually "work" the list.  The
rest are welcomed "lurkers" (an affectionate term) who remain silent but
absorb.  You've occasionally seen the stats I get from Mystery weekly.  I
want to emphasize here that the silent majority are very much welcomed, and
I've seen more input from them in the past 24 hours than ever before, thank
you all.
 
Chip Ford, List Owner / Administrator
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 Swing Keel "Chip Ahoy" #3282
CTY032820374
Chip Ahoy website:  www.chipford.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [ <mailto:[email-masked]>
mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Glenn Warner
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 11:50 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [LIST] -- A Proposal for the Future

I am going to agree with Jim again.  Chip, it is your list and you 
can, and will do with it as you wish.  I think that the format that 
you have decided on and the precautions you take make the list labor 
intensive on your end.  Nobody can truly appreciate the work involved 
to maintain it other than you and those who have run similar lists.  
You are the only one that can decide if it is worth it to you.  That 
being said, my opinion is, for what it is worth, (not much I 
suspect)  that the only way to decrease your work load will be to 
change the format of the list to something that is less labor 
intensive(look at David Torissi's forum as an example) I think that 
adding an application fee will just add a whole new set of problems 
not the least of which is a decrease in the number of applicants.  I 
know that there is very little chance I would pay a fee to check out 
a new list.  It is not the money.  I won't pay for ESPN Insider 
either though I look at the free content daily.  If it is too much 
work, fold it.  In the end it is about the sailing, not the talking.  
Thanks for what you do, I hope you continue.  Now I am going outside 
to long board my bottom, only a couple more months until the Nationals.

Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida
On May 11, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Jim McGee wrote:

> Chip Ford wrote:
> > I don't think a token "non-refundable application fee" will chase
> off
> > many who /really/ want to join -- only those who just want to see
> what
> > something-for-nothing provides, then opt-out quickly...
>
> > And if they decide to NOT join -- so what?  Nothing lost.
>
> In response to Jim McGee's post:
> Actually Chip I disagree and stand by my original thought. I think
> even a nominal application fee will chase off people for the simple 
> reason that the list has no value to someone until they've become 
> involved with it.  Watching the conversations ebb and flow, and in 
> particular being a fly on the wall when someone throws out a 
> question and you see all the good information that flows back. The 
> feeling of value builds over time.
>
> I think that's why the current system works so well. People can and
> do donate as their perceived value of the list increases.
>
> The real danger of even a nominal application fee is that, by and
> large, people will stop joining and without new blood the list will 
> become stagnant as it's only natural that existing list members 
> will drift away over time. It seems to me that a lot of the best 
> lively discussions start with a newbie asking what seems like a 
> simple question.
>
> You'll never get rich running a list like this, and at this stage
> of the Web's development you're doing awfully good if you can cover 
> your costs. But as much as you gripe about it, I think the list is 
> a labor of love.  ;^)
>
> Hopefully, giving folks a clearer understanding of what they're
> getting into will eliminate the spurious sign-ups and provide more 
> time for sailing, rum and loose women -- not necessarily in that 
> order.
>
> Just my two cents,
> Jim McGee
> C22 (coming soon)
> Maple Shade, NJ
>
> "It's hard to make things idiot proof when idiots are so creative" ~
> old saying among engineers
>