Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [GENERAL] Swing Keel vs Fixed Keel / knock down

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:53:32 -0400

Glenn,

So how long did the boat take to right itself once knocked down.  Was this a quick roll back or a long and scary ... oh crap moment ... when is it coming back up, kind of thing ?

I am assuming that water could flow into the cabin if a hatch / crib board were left out. 

I have never had a knock down, close a couple of times, no no water over the rail kind of thing.  I would like to know what to expect.

BTW-  I finished redoing the motor board last night... so this weekend, the mast gets put back together.  Heck, I might even sail in the Mid Winters and get my butt kicked... sounds like fun !

Bill Bell
#13784, Phoenix
87sk, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Warner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 7:55 am
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [GENERAL] Swing Keel vs Fixed Keel

Walter, I wasn't going to respond because I realize that you are not a racer so my perspective may be different than yours.  However, I just can't help myself:-)  The swing keel c22 points quite well.  Tacking through 90° should be no problem at all.  If it is I would start with mast rake.  This has been discussed a number of times but suffice to say, more rake equals higher pointing.  The trade off is weather helm.  Many folks will give numbers and measurements.  My advice is to sail your boat and adjust the rake until you like the way it feels on the helm.  Sail trim, quality/age of sails, amount of heel, inside jib tracks etc. also effect how high you are able to point and how much you will give up in leeway.  Are you just curious or are you interested in making your boat point higher.  If the latter, I am sure this list can give you plenty of advice.  Beyond pointing ability I find the c22 to have a wide groove and decent manners.  As far as the keel cable hum, there are different schools of thought.  I hate it.  Myself, and most who race these boats put enough slack in the cable so it just stops humming.  Besides the annoyance it is generally felt that the energy required to vibrate the cable enough to make it hum is scrubbing speed.  Some also feel it fatigues the cable and makes it more prone to failure. 

As far as lifting the keel on a run.  It is not done by one design racers.  There are a couple of reasons for this.  First and foremost it is against the one design rules.  Secondly, it may very well slow the boat.  And third, it is dangerous.  Being against the rules kinda speaks for itself.  Some classes allow this (we do it on the Flying Scot I race on)but these are mostly dingys where the keel is not a ballast keel as it is on the c22.  I don't know if anyone has done any two boat speed testing on this to get a definite answer, but the thinking on how raising the keel on a run affects speed goes like this; Yes it decreases drag.  Problem is you move a lot of weight back in the boat.  This affects fore and aft trim.  The c22 already is stern heavy and great pains are made to keep the stern high in the water on all points of sail and especially off the wind.  As far as safety, I have seen and been knocked down in a c22 with the keel all the way down.  They will right themselves from spreaders in the water, as long as the cockpit seat hatches are dogged down,  do to the ballast of the keel.  I am not so sure they would with the keel up.  If a broach puts your spreaders in the water, you will be much happier if the keel is down.  So the general consensus among racers is leave the keel down.  These are my opinions, and as my friend Bob Scott says "I could be wrong" 

Glenn Warner 

Goblin#10369 

JuJu#1222 

Jacksonville Florida 

On Jul 26, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Walter Musial wrote: 

> Having limited Catalina experience and for my location Swing keel > is the way to go. but among the more "seasoned" Catalina sailors > out there I'd like to know how do you compare the sailing mannors > of a swing keel to a traditional keel and wing keel Catalinas? I > also have been told by the previous owner as well as my own > experience about a buzzing or humming, I'm guessing this comes the > keels lifting cable vibrating when the boat is making good headway, > I relate this almost to a cat purring on your lap when they are > content. Is this a symptom of am issue to be addressed? been > experiencing this for the last 21 years so I will suppose it isn't > a horrible problem. 

> I find that the weak link in sailing the swing keel is beating to > windward. I find pinching and falling off oh so little the most > effective way to windward, but I have no doubt others have advice > to the contrary, which is why I am asking. I also find downwind > Keel up wing-on-wing is glorious way to get around in the Great > South Bay here in Long Island. 

 

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---

From: Glenn Warner <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:11:07 -0400

Bill, VERY slow, or at least it seems like it when you are on the  
boat.  The sooner you get the sheets off the faster it will come up.   
It won't come up until you do that.  More important than the lower  
crib board that most people think is important to have in is being  
sure the lazerette, cockpit seat hatches or what ever you call them  
are closed securely.  I think the lower crib board idea comes from  
standard wisdom on offshore boats.  If you get pooped, or get a bunch  
of water in the cockpit, it is best to keep it out of the cabin until  
it drains.  Wouldn't really think that is much of a problem in a  
c22.  The lower crib board will not prevent water from coming into  
the cabin during the knock down.  Think about it.  It will be the top  
of the hatch that goes under water first not the bottom of the hatch.  
After the knock down, the lower board may keep water from getting  
from the cockpit to the cabin but not that much water is going to get  
into the cockpit. Not many people are going to be sailing a c22 in 20  
foot breaking seas, not really what they are designed for.  Not  
enough water gets in the cockpit to spill over into the cabin in the  
usual knock down.  But, if you get knocked down and the leeward hatch  
falls open, you will sink.  Water will come in at an amazingly fast  
rate.  That is a big hole.

Definitely come and race at the Mid Winters.  You will have a blast.

Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida
On Jul 27, 2007, at 8:53 AM, [email-masked] wrote:

> Glenn,
>
> So how long did the boat take to right itself once knocked down.   
> Was this a quick roll back or a long and scary ... oh crap  
> moment ... when is it coming back up, kind of thing ?
>
> I have never had a knock down, close a couple of times, no no water  
> over the rail kind of thing.  I would like to know what to expect.
>
> BTW-  I finished redoing the motor board last night... so this  
> weekend, the mast gets put back together.  Heck, I might even sail  
> in the Mid Winters and get my butt kicked... sounds like fun !
>
> Bill Bell
> #13784, Phoenix
> 87sk, FL
>
> Walter, I wasn't going to respond because I realize that you are  
> not a racer so my perspective may be different than yours. However,  
> I just can't help myself:-) The swing keel c22 points quite well.  
> Tacking through 90° should be no problem at all. If it is I would  
> start with mast rake. This has been discussed a number of times but  
> suffice to say, more rake equals higher pointing. The trade off is  
> weather helm. Many folks will give numbers and measurements. My  
> advice is to sail your boat and adjust the rake until you like the  
> way it feels on the helm. Sail trim, quality/age of sails, amount  
> of heel, inside jib tracks etc. also effect how high you are able  
> to point and how much you will give up in leeway. Are you just  
> curious or are you interested in making your boat point higher. If  
> the latter, I am sure this list can give you plenty of advice.  
> Beyond pointing ability I find the c22 to have a wide groove and  
> decent manners. As far as the keel cable hum, there are different  
> schools of thought. I hate it. Myself, and most who race these  
> boats put enough slack in the cable so it just stops humming.  
> Besides the annoyance it is generally felt that the energy required  
> to vibrate the cable enough to make it hum is scrubbing speed. Some  
> also feel it fatigues the cable and makes it more prone to failure.
> As far as lifting the keel on a run. It is not done by one design  
> racers. There are a couple of reasons for this. First and foremost  
> it is against the one design rules. Secondly, it may very well slow  
> the boat. And third, it is dangerous. Being against the rules kinda  
> speaks for itself. Some classes allow this (we do it on the Flying  
> Scot I race on)but these are mostly dingys where the keel is not a  
> ballast keel as it is on the c22. I don't know if anyone has done  
> any two boat speed testing on this to get a definite answer, but  
> the thinking on how raising the keel on a run affects speed goes  
> like this; Yes it decreases drag. Problem is you move a lot of  
> weight back in the boat. This affects fore and aft trim. The c22  
> already is stern heavy and great pains are made to keep the stern  
> high in the water on all points of sail and especially off the  
> wind. As far as safety, I have seen and been knocked down in a c22  
> with the keel all the way down. They will right themselves from  
> spreaders in the water, as long as the cockpit seat hatches are  
> dogged down, do to the ballast of the keel. I am not so sure they  
> would with the keel up. If a broach puts your spreaders in the  
> water, you will be much happier if the keel is down. So the general  
> consensus among racers is leave the keel down. These are my  
> opinions, and as my friend Bob Scott says "I could be wrong"
>
> Glenn Warner
> Goblin#10369
> JuJu#1222
> Jacksonville Florida
> > Having limited Catalina experience and for my location Swing keel  
> > is the way to go. but among the more "seasoned" Catalina sailors  
> > out there I'd like to know how do you compare the sailing mannors  
> > of a swing keel to a traditional keel and wing keel Catalinas? I  
> > also have been told by the previous owner as well as my own >  
> experience about a buzzing or humming, I'm guessing this comes the  
> > keels lifting cable vibrating when the boat is making good  
> headway, > I relate this almost to a cat purring on your lap when  
> they are > content. Is this a symptom of am issue to be addressed?  
> been > experiencing this for the last 21 years so I will suppose it  
> isn't > a horrible problem.
> >
> > I find that the weak link in sailing the swing keel is beating to  
> > windward. I find pinching and falling off oh so little the most >  
> effective way to windward, but I have no doubt others have advice >  
> to the contrary, which is why I am asking. I also find downwind >  
> Keel up wing-on-wing is glorious way to get around in the Great >  
> South Bay here in Long Island.
> >
> >
>
> Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and  
> industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

---

From: "Walter Musial" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:32:31 +0000

The only racing I have done is flat out point to point my buddy and me on 
the way to a set point, hang for lunch and some down time and back. so sail 
design and keel position, is not a factor, and when out in the Atlantic I do 
have the keel down and secure as well as the hatches exactly for the reasons 
you describe (Knock downs). but if you look at a chart of the Great south 
bay I regularly sail in water ranging from 3 ft to 20' and if the wind gets 
to 10-15 knots it's considered a lot. In the bay I play a bit with keel 
position to minimize tacking, oddly I have been able to outsail 25's and 
27's simply by cutting over some flats in 3' of water while the bigger boys 
tack around. Looks kinda funny sailing past people wading in the bay in 3-4 
ft of water. Ahh but your thinking of the rudder, well I have reinforced the 
tip of the rudder since it was wearing a bit from the occasional drag on the 
sandy bottom, I have also devised a sacrificial link to hold the rudder down 
but to fail in the event of a grounding of the rudder. Efficient Naaa, but 
it does the job.

I have noticed the heavy stern by how much better the boat handles with 
someone on the foredeck. as a result I have rewired her with battery cases 
in either side of the V-birth. I have a hard time telling if the made an 
real difference in sailing. but it does make for more efficient use of the 
V-birth storage. I have been fortunate to never have been knocked down in 
any blow, good to know the Catalina is pretty good at self righting.

My initial question was purely information as to how well the different keel 
shapes work for the Cat.22, every Catalina I have seen here is set up pretty 
much the same way with the standard rig, others that have looked at my 
running the halyards into the cockpit like I was a mad genius. But here in 
this venue it's a forgone thought that it's done this way. I will definitely 
take your advise on raking the mast for better windward pointing.  I can see 
your point of the humming shortening the life of the cable due to vibration.

Me a racer?? well not in the sense your a racer, I’d LOVE to, if budget and 
time allowed I’d be one hell of a competitor out there.

>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [GENERAL] Swing Keel vs Fixed Keel / knock down
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:11:07 -0400
>
>Bill, VERY slow, or at least it seems like it when you are on the  boat.  
>The sooner you get the sheets off the faster it will come up.   It won't 
>come up until you do that.  More important than the lower  crib board that 
>most people think is important to have in is being  sure the lazerette, 
>cockpit seat hatches or what ever you call them  are closed securely.  I 
>think the lower crib board idea comes from  standard wisdom on offshore 
>boats.  If you get pooped, or get a bunch  of water in the cockpit, it is 
>best to keep it out of the cabin until  it drains.  Wouldn't really think 
>that is much of a problem in a  c22.  The lower crib board will not prevent 
>water from coming into  the cabin during the knock down.  Think about it.  
>It will be the top  of the hatch that goes under water first not the bottom 
>of the hatch.  After the knock down, the lower board may keep water from 
>getting  from the cockpit to the cabin but not that much water is going to 
>get  into the cockpit. Not many people are going to be sailing a c22 in 20  
>foot breaking seas, not really what they are designed for.  Not  enough 
>water gets in the cockpit to spill over into the cabin in the  usual knock 
>down.  But, if you get knocked down and the leeward hatch  falls open, you 
>will sink.  Water will come in at an amazingly fast  rate.  That is a big 
>hole.
>
>>So how long did the boat take to right itself once knocked down.   Was 
>>this a quick roll back or a long and scary ... oh crap  moment ... when is 
>>it coming back up, kind of thing ?
>>
>>I have never had a knock down, close a couple of times, no no water  over 
>>the rail kind of thing.  I would like to know what to expect.
>>
>>BTW-  I finished redoing the motor board last night... so this  weekend, 
>>the mast gets put back together.  Heck, I might even sail  in the Mid 
>>Winters and get my butt kicked... sounds like fun !
>>
>>Bill Bell
>>#13784, Phoenix
>>87sk, FL
>>
>>Walter, I wasn't going to respond because I realize that you are  not a 
>>racer so my perspective may be different than yours. However,  I just 
>>can't help myself:-) The swing keel c22 points quite well.  Tacking 
>>through 90° should be no problem at all. If it is I would  start with mast 
>>rake. This has been discussed a number of times but  suffice to say, more 
>>rake equals higher pointing. The trade off is  weather helm. Many folks 
>>will give numbers and measurements. My  advice is to sail your boat and 
>>adjust the rake until you like the  way it feels on the helm. Sail trim, 
>>quality/age of sails, amount  of heel, inside jib tracks etc. also effect 
>>how high you are able  to point and how much you will give up in leeway. 
>>Are you just  curious or are you interested in making your boat point 
>>higher. If  the latter, I am sure this list can give you plenty of advice. 
>>  Beyond pointing ability I find the c22 to have a wide groove and  decent 
>>manners. As far as the keel cable hum, there are different  schools of 
>>thought. I hate it. Myself, and most who race these  boats put enough 
>>slack in the cable so it just stops humming.  Besides the annoyance it is 
>>generally felt that the energy required  to vibrate the cable enough to 
>>make it hum is scrubbing speed. Some  also feel it fatigues the cable and 
>>makes it more prone to failure.
>>As far as lifting the keel on a run. It is not done by one design  racers. 
>>There are a couple of reasons for this. First and foremost  it is against 
>>the one design rules. Secondly, it may very well slow  the boat. And 
>>third, it is dangerous. Being against the rules kinda  speaks for itself. 
>>Some classes allow this (we do it on the Flying  Scot I race on)but these 
>>are mostly dingys where the keel is not a  ballast keel as it is on the 
>>c22. I don't know if anyone has done  any two boat speed testing on this 
>>to get a definite answer, but  the thinking on how raising the keel on a 
>>run affects speed goes  like this; Yes it decreases drag. Problem is you 
>>move a lot of  weight back in the boat. This affects fore and aft trim. 
>>The c22  already is stern heavy and great pains are made to keep the stern 
>>  high in the water on all points of sail and especially off the  wind. As 
>>far as safety, I have seen and been knocked down in a c22  with the keel 
>>all the way down. They will right themselves from  spreaders in the water, 
>>as long as the cockpit seat hatches are  dogged down, do to the ballast of 
>>the keel. I am not so sure they  would with the keel up. If a broach puts 
>>your spreaders in the  water, you will be much happier if the keel is 
>>down. So the general  consensus among racers is leave the keel down. These 
>>are my  opinions, and as my friend Bob Scott says "I could be wrong"
>>
>>Glenn Warner
>>Goblin#10369
>>JuJu#1222
>>Jacksonville Florida
>> > Having limited Catalina experience and for my location Swing keel  > is 
>>the way to go. but among the more "seasoned" Catalina sailors  > out there 
>>I'd like to know how do you compare the sailing mannors  > of a swing keel 
>>to a traditional keel and wing keel Catalinas? I  > also have been told by 
>>the previous owner as well as my own >  experience about a buzzing or 
>>humming, I'm guessing this comes the  > keels lifting cable vibrating when 
>>the boat is making good  headway, > I relate this almost to a cat purring 
>>on your lap when  they are > content. Is this a symptom of am issue to be 
>>addressed?  been > experiencing this for the last 21 years so I will 
>>suppose it  isn't > a horrible problem.
>> >
>> > I find that the weak link in sailing the swing keel is beating to  > 
>>effective way to windward, but I have no doubt others have advice >  to 
>>the contrary, which is why I am asking. I also find downwind >  Keel up 
>>wing-on-wing is glorious way to get around in the Great >  South Bay here 
>>in Long Island.
>> >
>> >
>>