Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:15:43 +0000

Rich, I am not positive I understand your question.  But a couple of things I will say are, my headstay is pretty long.  I don't think that 27'1" thing is set in stone.  Backstay tension is also going to increase forward lower tension which should keep the mast in column.  Your headstay has to be long enough in relation to your forward lowers to enable you to keep them tight without overtensioning your headstay.  As the wind builds more and you take a couple of turns up on your forward lowers, they come on sooner and by the time you have your backstay full on your headstay should be at 600# and your lowers should be tight.  I use a model A gauge.  the uppers on my boat are a little higher than Bobs, around 32 or 33.  The numbers for the lowers are kind of artificial.  With the back stay off they can't be measured(too loose)  and then it depends on how much backstay is on what the number is.  Hope this helps.

Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
jacksonville Florida

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: [email-masked] 

Bob & Glenn,

A clarification please?  Are the tension #'s you reference for the Loos' A or PT-1?

I've been setting up the rig similarly the past couple seasons (based on Joe's advice) with the tension of the lowers in the mid to upper teens with the PT-1, and less in really light air. My quandary is, how much tension on the uppers can I get away with and keep the mast in column?  

I find with the lowers in the mid-teens, the mast tends to go out column at a tension 25 or so.  I then need to tension up the lowers to maintain column as I exceed 25 on the uppers towards 30.

Rich Magner
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
www.SeTherin.com

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

Let me see if I can try to splain.  Yes, with the backstay at full ease the head stay and back stay sag significantly.  So do the forward and aft lowers. To look at the thing you would think it is going to fall over.  In order for this to work you must have a backstay with plenty of purchase, able to pull up 600# on the backstay.    
It must also have a great deal of travel.  And you have to have a really long headstay. You do not sail the boat with the rig flopping around.  Up wind, in light air, enough backstay needs to be on so the forward lowers just tension up, giving you max rake. and the rig is supported by headstay, forward lowers, and backstay. This is why you don't want the lowers to be too tight in light air.  You don't want to be bending the mast when you are trying to rake the mast. As the wind increases, tensioning the forward lowers brings them into play sooner as you tension the backstay and results in bending the mast. You then have a tighter forestay, tighter forward lowers, curve in the mast de-powering the main, and less rake.  Remember, rake is going to give you weather helm.  So this helps with that also.  Down wind, backstay all the way off and those loose aft lowers allow the mast to go forward without bending, much as the loose forward lowers allowed you to rake the mast up wind.

I have been racing these boats for about 3 years.  I have a long way to go before I am really competitive.  Lots of the top guys have been racing these boats for years.  It seems my rig keeps getting looser and looser as I gain confidence that it won't fall down.  Joe Waters frequently races with our fleet down here in Florida and he is happy to give advice and coaching.  What I have said above is basically what Joe does to kick our butts around here.  I understand he will be giving one of his seminars in conjunction with the Nationals.  It would be well worth attending if you can.

The key to running a rig like this is the backstay.  It must be powerful and have a lot of travel.  By tuning your boat like this you give yourself a rig that can be adjusted for all conditions.  Need more?  Buy a set of Waters sails and I am sure Joe will be happy to help you out:-)

Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:30 AM

Paul, I just wanted to let you know Glenn is absolutely correct about the rig. I keep mine pretty loose, maybe even looser than Glenn does. My uppers are about 30 on the loose gauge, and my aft lowers are about 15, 18. I hand tight the forward lowers. This is in light air, if the pressure picks up during the race I tighten up my back stay just a tad to take the slop out of the headstay. In between races we will re-tune the lowers. Loose is definitely fast, but does comes with some risks and consequences. 

From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:55 AM

Paul, 
I don't start to tighten mine up until it gets over say 12 then only slightly. When it blows over 15 and probably closer to 18 I tighten up the aft lower to about 22, and the forward lowers to about 20. One thing I leaned, the hard way, from the Melges guys is always go back to what your neutral is as soon as the racing is over. If you tightened it up 4 or 5 turns then you go back the same amount. It helps on the water if you use turns and not the loose gauge, quicker and easier to remember where your rig is. Bob Scott, The Banshee 6973

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

So you guys are sailing it loose to windward, too, unless the wind picks up ? Up to what ? Am I correct in thinking now that the stays are doing most of the work unless it starts blowing, then you tension the headstay to give the stays some help ? 

Paul Kingsbury
Elmira, NY
Ragamuffin

See what's free at AOL.com.

---

From: "Richard Magner" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:23:21 -0400

Glenn, 
 
My greatest confusion was whether you guys were citing numbers from the Loos
A or the Loos PT-1.  On the Loos PT-1, I run the uppers from 22 on the low
side, to 25 max.  I believe as I begin tensioning above 22 on the uppers w/o
compensating on the lowers from my light air settings, the mast no longer
remains in column.
-Rich

In a message dated 4/27/2007 10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email-masked] writes:
 
Bob,
 
Your numbers make more since now, as a I've been using a PT-1 ever since my
"A" model gave up the ghost a few years back.  And 33 on an "A" is
approximately 25 on a PT-1 which is about the max I ever cinch my uppers
too.   Thanks much.   -Rich
 
Rich Magner
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
www.SeTherin.com <http://www.setherin.com/> 
 
In a message dated 4/27/2007 9:50:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email-masked] writes:
 
Rich, That is on the Model A, I havent notice that mine does that, I keep it
at about 30 and hardley ever more than 32/33. I actually havent jumped up
there and look at the mast myself, I let my crew do that. I have noticed
that from my angle it does seem my mast is a little out of column to
leeward, but as long as I dont have any flex in my deck and the rigging is
in good shape, I have been too worried about it. I kinda of judge the speed
of the boat to how I can hang with Dennis, Winn and the rest of the ROCK
STARS at lake lanier. If I am hanging in there things are good, if not I
start making changes and normally it is going down not up. Bob

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 10:16 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
 
Rich, I am not positive I understand your question.  But a couple of things
I will say are, my headstay is pretty long.  I don't think that 27'1" thing
is set in stone.  Backstay tension is also going to increase forward lower
tension which should keep the mast in column.  Your headstay has to be long
enough in relation to your forward lowers to enable you to keep them tight
without overtensioning your headstay.  As the wind builds more and you take
a couple of turns up on your forward lowers, they come on sooner and by the
time you have your backstay full on your headstay should be at 600# and your
lowers should be tight.  I use a model A gauge.  the uppers on my boat are a
little higher than Bobs, around 32 or 33.  The numbers for the lowers are
kind of artificial.  With the back stay off they can't be measured(too
loose)  and then it depends on how much backstay is on what the number is.
Hope this helps.
 
Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
jacksonville Florida
 
-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: [email-masked] 

Bob & Glenn,
 
A clarification please?  Are the tension #'s you reference for the Loos' A
or PT-1?
 
I've been setting up the rig similarly the past couple seasons (based on
Joe's advice) with the tension of the lowers in the mid to upper teens with
the PT-1, and less in really light air. My quandary is, how much tension on
the uppers can I get away with and keep the mast in column?  
 
I find with the lowers in the mid-teens, the mast tends to go out column at
a tension 25 or so.  I then need to tension up the lowers to maintain column
as I exceed 25 on the uppers towards 30.
 
Rich Magner
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
www.SeTherin.com <http://www.setherin.com/> 

Let me see if I can try to splain.  Yes, with the backstay at full ease the
head stay and back stay sag significantly.  So do the forward and aft
lowers. To look at the thing you would think it is going to fall over.  In
order for this to work you must have a backstay with plenty of purchase,
able to pull up 600# on the backstay.    
It must also have a great deal of travel.  And you have to have a really
long headstay. You do not sail the boat with the rig flopping around.  Up
wind, in light air, enough backstay needs to be on so the forward lowers
just tension up, giving you max rake. and the rig is supported by headstay,
forward lowers, and backstay. This is why you don't want the lowers to be
too tight in light air.  You don't want to be bending the mast when you are
trying to rake the mast. As the wind increases, tensioning the forward
lowers brings them into play sooner as you t! ension the backstay and
results in bending the mast. You then have a tighter forestay, tighter
forward lowers, curve in the mast de-powering the main, and less rake.
Remember, rake is going to give you weather helm.  So this helps with that
also.  Down wind, backstay all the way off and those loose aft lowers allow
the mast to go forward without bending, much as the loose forward lowers
allowed you to rake the mast up wind.
 
I have been racing these boats for about 3 years.  I have a long way to go
before I am really competitive.  Lots of the top guys have been racing these
boats for years.  It seems my rig keeps getting looser and looser as I gain
confidence that it won't fall down.  Joe Waters frequently races with our
fleet down here in Florida and he is happy to give advice and coaching.
What I have said above is basically what Joe does to kick our butts around
here.  I understand he will be giving one of his seminars in conjunction
with the Nationals.  It would be well worth attending if you can.
 
The key to running a rig like this is the backstay.  It must be powerful and
have a lot of travel.  By tuning your boat like this you give yourself a rig
that can be adjusted for all conditions.  Need more?  Buy a set of Waters
sails and I am sure Joe will be happy to help you out:-)
 
Glenn Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida

Paul, I just wanted to let you know Glenn is absolutely correct about the
rig. I keep mine pretty loose, maybe even looser than Glenn does. My uppers
are about 30 on the loose gauge, and my aft lowers are about 15, 18. I hand
tight the forward lowers. This is in light air, if the pressure picks up
during the race I tighten up my back stay just a tad to take the slop out of
the headstay. In between races we will re-tune the lowers. Loose is
definitely fast, but does comes with some risks and consequences. 

Paul, 
I don't start to tighten mine up until it gets over say 12 then only
slightly. When it blows over 15 and probably closer to 18 I tighten up the
aft lower to about 22, and the forward lowers to about 20. One thing I
leaned, the hard way, from the Melges guys is always go back to what your
neutral is as soon as the racing is over. If you tightened it up 4 or 5
turns then you go back the same amount. It helps on the water if you use
turns and not the loose gauge, quicker and easier to remember where your rig
is. Bob Scott, The Banshee 6973

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
So you guys are sailing it loose to windward, too, unless the wind picks up
? Up to what ? Am I correct in thinking now that the stays are doing most of
the work unless it starts blowing, then you tension the headstay to give the
stays some help ? 
 
Paul Kingsbury
Elmira, NY
Ragamuffin

  _____  

See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .