Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice?

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:16:05 -0400

Robert,

All I can say is bummer.? You basically know what you need to do.? Inspect every inch.? I would use a wood hammer and tap around the area trying to hear a sound difference which may tell you that there is an issue with the glass. The loose glass in the bilge is an issue... it had to come from somewhere.? Maybe when the boat was made ? finally came loose ?? one could only hope.? A flashlight and a mirror will help tell the story.

If nothing else, you have some epoxy work ahead of you to reinforce the keel area. I don't know how the keel is held in place on your style boat.? Is it through bolted from the inside of the hull? if so, can you pull the bolts and put a layer or two of mat and then re-bolt ? (use something to prevent the resin from getting into the threads)

Perhaps one of the people on this list who have the wing keel has more ideas.? 

Good luck 

Bill Bell
#13784, Phoenix
87sk, FL

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bemben <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 7:01 am
Subject: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice?

Well ... it finally happened. We ran 'Jib Dance' up on some underwater 
boulders last Friday while I was teaching a friend's son how to steer and we 
cut the corner too closely rounding a small island on the North Channel, 
moving at about 3 knots under sail. I think I was taken out of my usual 
cautious, single-hander's routine with my friend and his 3 teenage boys in 
the cockpit. The Garmin showed a zone of 5.6+ feet, but later analysis of 
the paper chart showed 3 ft. No excuse ... it shouldn't have happened, but 
did.?
?

The boat bounced up and down on the boulders for a few minutes in the waves, 
striking the keel a dozen or so times and the rudder a couple of times too. 
Then we drifted off the rocks and continued on to S. Benjamin Island. At 
anchor I dove on the keel, and it appeared fine. The next day there was 
maybe 1/2" of water in the bilge, but I think most of it was from swim suits 
and a leaky 5-gal. water jug. So I thought we were ok.?
?

When we returned to Spanish (14 miles) on Sunday we sailed on a short reach 
through 3-4 ft. seas with 15-20 knot winds, so the keel got a workout. Upon 
inspecting the bilge at dock there was about 1-1/2" of water in the bilge 
and maybe 2 cups of 'glass' (i.e. fiberglass). I cleaned it up, tightened 
the keel bolts (2 forward bolts were seeping water and needed 1/2 turn each) 
and got out the epoxy. I applied epoxy around each of the 6 keel bolt 
washers. I noticed a hairline crack in the hull around the forward 3 bolts 
and coated that too. The hull around the aft 3 bolts appears to be 'bulged' 
or domed up about 1/4" the whole width of the bilge - not sure if it was 
like that before.?
?

I'm hauling Jib Dance home later this week. Any advice on how to repair or 
comments on where all that fiberglass was coming from??
?

I always thought the wing keel could withstand a grounding, but I've 
tempered that opinion now. In a bad situation with waves, the rocks could 
probably push that wing keel right through the hull or at least cause some 
serious leaking. A full fin keel would likely fare best on the rocks!?
?

Robert Bemben?

Bliss Twp., Michigan?

1991 C22 wing keel?

Sail #15185?

"Jib Dance"?
?

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---

From: "Robert Bemben" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:03:41 +0000

Bill,

No, the 6 bolts are embedded in the lead keel and their shafts pass through 
the hull and are secured by flat washers and nuts on the bilge side. The 
bolts extend vertically about 2" after passing through the hull.

So I'm guessing I will need to detach the wing keel from the boat to survey 
the damage.

I imagine that quite a bit of glass-filled material is used to "fair" or 
contour the wing keel to the hull. Maybe there are cracks in the fairing 
that are letting water flush glass filler material up through the bolt 
holes.

Robert Bemben
Bliss Twp., Michigan
1991 C22 wing keel
Sail #15185
"Jib Dance"

>From: [email-masked]
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice?
>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:16:05 -0400
>
>
>  Robert,
>
>All I can say is bummer.? You basically know what you need to do.? Inspect 
>every inch.? I would use a wood hammer and tap around the area trying to 
>hear a sound difference which may tell you that there is an issue with the 
>glass. The loose glass in the bilge is an issue... it had to come from 
>somewhere.? Maybe when the boat was made ? finally came loose ?? one could 
>only hope.? A flashlight and a mirror will help tell the story.
>
>If nothing else, you have some epoxy work ahead of you to reinforce the 
>keel area. I don't know how the keel is held in place on your style boat.? 
>Is it through bolted from the inside of the hull? if so, can you pull the 
>bolts and put a layer or two of mat and then re-bolt ? (use something to 
>prevent the resin from getting into the threads)
>
>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and 
>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.

_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
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---

From: "Robert Bemben" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:30:15 +0000

Bill,

I've given more thought to what I observed, and I'm not at all sure the 
material I saw in the bilge was (fiber-) glass. This was the most water ever 
in the bilge, and it may have washed loose some foam material. I've noted a 
lot of foam "fill" in certain areas of the bilge. I thought the water-soaked 
material was glass, since it made my hands itch. I'll have to take a closer 
look when the boat is home. First step of course is to dry everything out.

My initial inclination was exactly what you proposed: Add glass fabric and 
resin layers to the bilge side. Enough to make it 'stronger than original'. 
Maybe this can be done with the bolts in place, but nuts and washers 
removed. I'd need to find a way to protect the bolt threads while working.

I appreciate your ideas (and your sympathy!) - thanks!

Now I just need to get that trailor 190 miles to the boat before Jib Dance 
sinks in its slip ...

Robert Bemben
Bliss Twp., Michigan
1991 C22 wing keel
Sail #15185
"Jib Dance"

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---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:22:24 -0700 (PDT)

Robert,
   
  Sorry to hear of your mis hap. Seems you are taking it pretty well in stride. At least you have had some great sailing so far this season. Check the boat out real well and get it back in ship shape to alleviate doubts about integrity. 
   
  Glenn Hedmark
  12533 sk
  DiZire
  Wauconda, Illinois

Robert Bemben <[email-masked]> wrote:
  Bill,

Robert Bemben
Bliss Twp., Michigan
1991 C22 wing keel
Sail #15185
"Jib Dance"

>From: Robert Bemben

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:19:02 -0400

Put some grease on the threads and some tape over that.? The tape will need to stick to its self and will come off really easy. The reason for the tape is to keep the threads from even thinking about having any resin on them. 

I really don't think you are into any heavy hull damage.? Maybe it just stretched things a little as the lead is soft. I think you have a 'little catalina smile' going on.

Good luck

Bill Bell
#13784, Phoenix
87sk, FL

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bemben <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 2:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice?

Bill,?
?

look when the boat is home. First step of course is to dry everything out.?
?

My initial inclination was exactly what you proposed: Add glass fabric and 
resin layers to the bilge side. Enough to make it 'stronger than original'. 
Maybe this can be done with the bolts in place, but nuts and washers 
removed. I'd need to find a way to protect the bolt threads while working.?
?

I appreciate your ideas (and your sympathy!) - thanks!?
?

sinks in its slip ...?
?

Robert Bemben?

Bliss Twp., Michigan?

1991 C22 wing keel?

Sail #15185?

"Jib Dance"?
?

>From: [email-masked]?

>Reply-To: [email-masked]?

>To: [email-masked]?

>Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice??

>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:16:05 -0400?

>  Robert,?

>only hope.? A flashlight and a mirror will help tell the story.?

>prevent the resin from getting into the threads)?

>Perhaps one of the people on this list who have the wing keel has more 
>ideas.??

>Good luck?

>Bill Bell?

>#13784, Phoenix?

>87sk, FL?

>-----Original Message-----?

>From: Robert Bemben <[email-masked]>?

>To: [email-masked]?

>Sent: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 7:01 am?

>Subject: [Catalina-22] [TECH] [Wing Keel] [Keel damage] Advice??

>Well ... it finally happened. We ran 'Jib Dance' up on some underwater?

>boulders last Friday while I was teaching a friend's son how to steer and 
>we?

>cut the corner too closely rounding a small island on the North Channel,?

>moving at about 3 knots under sail. I think I was taken out of my usual?

>cautious, single-hander's routine with my friend and his 3 teenage boys in?

>the cockpit. The Garmin showed a zone of 5.6+ feet, but later analysis of?

>the paper chart showed 3 ft. No excuse ... it shouldn't have happened, but?

>did.??

>??

>The boat bounced up and down on the boulders for a few minutes in the 
>waves,?

>striking the keel a dozen or so times and the rudder a couple of times too.?

>Then we drifted off the rocks and continued on to S. Benjamin Island. At?

>anchor I dove on the keel, and it appeared fine. The next day there was?

>maybe 1/2" of water in the bilge, but I think most of it was from swim 
>suits?

>and a leaky 5-gal. water jug. So I thought we were ok.??

>??

>When we returned to Spanish (14 miles) on Sunday we sailed on a short reach?

>through 3-4 ft. seas with 15-20 knot winds, so the keel got a workout. Upon?

>inspecting the bilge at dock there was about 1-1/2" of water in the bilge?

>and maybe 2 cups of 'glass' (i.e. fiberglass). I cleaned it up, tightened?

>the keel bolts (2 forward bolts were seeping water and needed 1/2 turn 
>each)?

>and got out the epoxy. I applied epoxy around each of the 6 keel bolt?

>washers. I noticed a hairline crack in the hull around the forward 3 bolts?

>and coated that too. The hull around the aft 3 bolts appears to be 'bulged'?

>or domed up about 1/4" the whole width of the bilge - not sure if it was?

>like that before.??

>??

>I'm hauling Jib Dance home later this week. Any advice on how to repair or?

>comments on where all that fiberglass was coming from???

>??

>I always thought the wing keel could withstand a grounding, but I've?

>tempered that opinion now. In a bad situation with waves, the rocks could?

>probably push that wing keel right through the hull or at least cause some?

>serious leaking. A full fin keel would likely fare best on the rocks!??

>??

>Robert Bemben??

>Bliss Twp., Michigan??

>1991 C22 wing keel??

>Sail #15185??

>"Jib Dance"??

>??

>_________________________________________________________________??

>FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!?

>http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/??

>??

>________________________________________________________________________?

>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.?
?