Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:25:49 EDT

Bob & Glenn,
 
A clarification please?  Are the tension #'s you reference for the  Loos' A 
or PT-1?
 
I've been setting up the rig similarly the past couple seasons (based  on 
Joe's advice) with the tension of the lowers in the mid to upper teens  with the 
PT-1, and less in really light air. My quandary is, how much tension on  the 
uppers can I get away with and keep the mast in column?  
 
I find with the lowers in the mid-teens, the mast tends to go out  column at 
a tension 25 or so.  I then need to tension up the lowers to  maintain column 
as I exceed 25 on the uppers towards 30.
 
Rich Magner
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
_www.SeTherin.com_ (http://www.SeTherin.com) 

From: [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
To: [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
Sent: Thu, 26  Apr 2007 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging  question
 
Let me see if I can try to splain.  Yes, with  the backstay at full ease the 
head stay and back stay sag significantly.   So do the forward and aft lowers. 
To look at the thing you would think it is  going to fall over.  In order for 
this to work you must have a backstay  with plenty of purchase, able to pull 
up 600# on the backstay.     
It must also have a great deal of travel.  And you have to have a  really 
long headstay. You do not sail the boat with the rig flopping  around.  Up wind, 
in light air, enough backstay needs to be on so the  forward lowers just 
tension up, giving you max rake. and the rig is supported by  headstay, forward 
lowers, and backstay. This is why you don't want the lowers to  be too tight in 
light air.  You don't want to be bending the mast when you  are trying to rake 
the mast. As the wind increases, tensioning the forward  lowers brings them 
into play sooner as you tension the backstay and results  in bending the mast. 
You then have a tighter forestay, tighter forward  lowers, curve in the mast 
de-powering the main, and less rake.  Remember,  rake is going to give you 
weather helm.  So this helps with that  also.  Down wind, backstay all the way off 
and those loose aft lowers allow  the mast to go forward without bending, much 
as the loose forward lowers allowed  you to rake the mast up wind.
 
I have been racing these boats for about 3  years.  I have a long way to go 
before I am really competitive.  Lots  of the top guys have been racing these 
boats for years.  It seems my rig  keeps getting looser and looser as I gain 
confidence that it won't fall  down.  Joe Waters frequently races with our fleet 
down here in Florida and  he is happy to give advice and coaching.  What I 
have said above is  basically what Joe does to kick our butts around here.  I 
understand he  will be giving one of his seminars in conjunction with the 
Nationals.  It  would be well worth attending if you can.
 
The key to running a rig like this is the  backstay.  It must be powerful and 
have a lot of travel.  By tuning  your boat like this you give yourself a rig 
that can be adjusted for all  conditions.  Need more?  Buy a set of Waters 
sails and I am sure Joe  will be happy to help you out:-)
 
Glenn  Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida
 
From: [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
To: [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
Subject: Re:  [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:30  AM

Paul, I just wanted to let you know Glenn is absolutely correct about the  
rig. I keep mine pretty loose, maybe even looser than Glenn does. My uppers are  
about 30 on the loose gauge, and my aft lowers are about 15, 18. I hand tight 
 the forward lowers. This is in light air, if the pressure picks up during 
the  race I tighten up my back stay just a tad to take the slop out of the 
headstay.  In between races we will re-tune the lowers. Loose is definitely fast, 
but does  comes with some risks and consequences. 
 
From: [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
To:  [email-masked] (mailto:[email-masked]) 
Subject: Re:  [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:55  AM
 
Paul, 
I don't start to tighten mine up until it gets over say 12 then only  
slightly. When it blows over 15 and probably closer to 18 I tighten up the aft  lower 
to about 22, and the forward lowers to about 20. One thing I leaned, the  
hard way, from the Melges guys is always go back to what your neutral is as soon  
as the racing is over. If you tightened it up 4 or 5 turns then you go back 
the  same amount. It helps on the water if you use turns and not the loose 
gauge,  quicker and easier to remember where your rig is. Bob Scott, The Banshee  
6973

-----Original Message-----
From:  [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 9:36  AM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

So you guys are sailing it loose to windward,  too, unless the wind picks up 
? Up to what ? Am I correct in thinking now  that the stays are doing most of 
the work unless it starts blowing, then you  tension the headstay to give the 
stays some help ? 
 
Paul Kingsbury
Elmira,  NY
Ragamuffin

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:12:05 EDT

Bob,
 
Your numbers make more since now, as a I've been using a PT-1 ever since my  
"A" model gave up the ghost a few years back.  And 33 on an "A" is  
approximately 25 on a PT-1 which is about the max I ever cinch my uppers  too.   Thanks 
much.   -Rich
 
Rich Magner
 
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
_www.SeTherin.com_ (http://www.setherin.com/) 

In a message dated 4/27/2007 9:50:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[email-masked] writes:

Rich, That is on the Model A, I havent notice that mine does that, I keep  it 
at about 30 and hardley ever more than 32/33. I actually havent jumped up  
there and look at the mast myself, I let my crew do that. I have noticed that  
from my angle it does seem my mast is a little out of column to leeward, but  
as long as I dont have any flex in my deck and the rigging is in good shape, I  
have been too worried about it. I kinda of judge the speed of the boat to how 
 I can hang with Dennis, Winn and the rest of the ROCK STARS at lake lanier. 
If  I am hanging in there things are good, if not I start making changes and  
normally it is going down not up. Bob-----Original Message-----
From:  [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Sent: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 9:25  AM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging question

 
Bob & Glenn,

 
 
Rich Magner
SeTherin #9472
swing-keel, pop-top
Glastonbury, CT
_www.SeTherin.com_ (http://www.setherin.com/) 

and those loose aft lowers allow the mast to go  forward without bending, 
much as the loose fo! rward lowers allowed you to  rake the mast up wind.

 
Glenn  Warner
Goblin#10369
JuJu#1222
Jacksonville Florida

Paul, I just wanted to let you know Glenn is absolutely correct about the  
rig. I keep mine pretty loose, maybe even looser than Glenn does. My uppers  are 
about 30 on the loose gauge, and my aft lowers are about 15, 18. I hand  
tight the forward lowers. This is in light air, if the pressure picks up  during 
the race I tighten up my back stay just a tad to take the slop out of  the 
headstay. In between races we will re-tune the lowers. Loose is definitely  fast, 
but does comes with some risks and consequences. 

Paul, 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] 
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To:  [email-masked] 
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Sent:  Thu, 26 Apr 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Catalina-22] Yet another rigging  question

Paul Kingsbury
Elmira,  NY
Ragamuffin